Sound per Pound

[dr0]

I was thinking about the conundrum of having to bring big amp setups to get big sounds recently, and came up with this catchy title for the thread, and a metric for gigging rigs.
"Sound per Pound". The old-school tried-and-true way to get big sound is with big amps and big cabs and lots of speakers.

It's not surprising to me that the almost standard setup in the weird collection of dive and semi-dive bars in my area is the Marshall half-stack. Sure, a couple of the nicer bars have decent PA's and you could get away with your favorite Fender Princeton, or whatever, but a lot don't. Minimal PA's or band supplied ones are not uncommon in these joints.

When I say "Marshall half stack" I am speaking generically. The actual brands of both heads and cabs very greatly. 50 watt and 100 watt are both common. I've seen Peavy's, JCM-800's, JCM-900s, SVT's and a few others at the various places I drop in on Friday and Saturday nights, almost always paired up with a 4x12 cab, or in one case a pair of 2x12 cabs.

A trend I see though is people using newer smaller sized heads. Better sound/pound ratio on those. The older Marshalls and Oranges used the same enclosure for 50 watt and 100 watt designs. The newer amp builders scale stuff down, a trend that is improving sound/pound ratios.

I rarely us my only 1/2 stack anymore. It's a great sounding amp, but the sound/pound ratio on it has to be one of the worst ever. It's an Orange AD-140 and full-sized Orange cab of similar vintage. The last time I played it at a gig it was an outdoor amphitheater. The cab weighs 101 lbs, the head (i'm guessing here) goes about 60 lbs.

In contrast my Fender Bassman RI is a very efficient in sound/pound. 45 watts, 40 diameter-inches of speaker, 45 lbs. I was checking out smaller Fender amps a while ago, and you sound/pound of the Bassman is really hard to beat.
A Fender Twin Reverb is 65 lbs. The 100 watt Twin combo is another gigging musicians favorite, good sound/pound ratio, but not as much sound/pound as the Bassman in my opinion. Spring Reverb is a heavy thing.

I've even started looking with some appreciation at smaller and cheaper cabs, because of their size. The Marshall "Carbon" series 4x12 is only 64lbs. That's a fully 35lbs less than the Orange. Tone snobs hate particle board cabs, but roadies like them. And of course some of the weigh savings is down to smaller dimensions: 26x26x14 for the el cheapo Marshall vs. 31x29x14.5 for the Orange. Marshall used to make 4x10 cabs, those seem interesting. A do notice that 2x12s are coming up, no longer the red-headed step child of cabs. (With apologies to Bandmaster lovers.)

Anyway, just kicking all this around, what are your thoughts.

[Demanic]

Re: Sound per Pound

How about a Line 6 Helix into a Yamaha Stagepass 600? Or whatever the house system is if it's better.

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[dr0]

Re: Sound per Pound

You know there is a very popular cover band that plays around in Indian Casinos in Washington where the guitar player went from using a Marshall combo amp to doing the Line 6 into the PA. Indian casino rooms are all big, mostly big dance floors in front a full sized stage about 3 feet high. Anyway, I knew the band well and saw them several times with both configurations and really didn't like the PA only setup. What I noticed was that if you were on the dance floor with the PA hanging above, then the guitar sound, particularly on solos, just sounded far away and lost-in-the-mix, as it was. If you went to the bar in the back of the room it sounded pretty good. I'm sure teh sound guy in the booth was telling him it sounded great, and the tapes off the board sounded ok too.

With the combo you could sort of slide over the that side of the stage and get the real sound of the amp and it was projecting a lot better. Now everything else in the mix is also coming at you when you are in front on the dance floor (or standing floor, if you are semi-imobile like me). The drums are real drums, you are hearing them. The bass and keyboards both had amps, the singers had both their voices *right there* and the sound reflecting out of the stage monitors, so the guitar was uniquely only present in the PA. It just didn't work for me.

Back in the 1980s I tried doing the rack-mount PA-for-guitar thing, with Toa 12" speakers, a Bob Carver amp (one of the first class-D amps made, it was not very reliable in this application) and some rack effects / pre-amp stuff. It ended up being more of a hassle to move than a simple combo amp, and I never really got it sounding like I wanted it to.

Another classic sound/pound that worked better is the Mesa Boogie thing, with a very powerful 1x12" combo. I bought the Carvin imitation of it - I think it has a 60 watt / 100 watt switch on it, and did use it particularly on pickup gigs and jam sessions. It's nice to have butthead-anhiliating power in a non-descript package. Eventually I blew it up at band practice, and just recently had "the guy" fix it for me and he told me it was a hybrid tube / digital amp. He suggested I sell it but the price for used amps like that is barely worth the cost of driving to the used music store.

But I think a real Mesa (which would also probably have a much nicer tone) is high on the sound/pound, but no matter how many watts you can only get so much umph out of one 12" speaker, in my opinion. I'd rather play a 4x10 at lower volume to fill up the space than blast a 1-12 combo. YMMV.

[Mincer]

Re: Sound per Pound

As someone who actually has to carry the equipment in, I am very happy with the sound I get direct to the PA. It is also the best-mixed sound out front I've ever had (and the easiest to mix).

[Sirion]

Re: Sound per Pound

If sound per pound is a matter, the latest generation of class D power amps can't be overlooked. A SD PowerStage 170 weighs about 2 lbs., but can deliver at least as much power as a 50w amp if the rig is optimized around it.

[dr0]

Re: Sound per Pound

If sound per pound is a matter, the latest generation of class D power amps can't be overlooked. A SD PowerStage 170 weighs about 2 lbs., but can deliver at least as much power as a 50w amp if the rig is optimized around it.

Yeah, it's amazing to compare the old-school bass amps with the new ones, which are almost all class D.

[dystrust]

Re: Sound per Pound

IMO the sound per pound metric only makes sense in terms of bass amps where you actually need all of that wattage.

I used a 100W Marshall Jubilee (47lbs) for years, first with a 4x12 (96lbs) and later with a ported 2x12 (55lbs). That's a pound per watt with the 2x12 and 1.4lb/W with the 4x12. Last year I picked up a 20W Mini Jubilee head (22lbs) and now I run that through a Egnater Rebel 112X (20lbs). I'm at roughly 2lb/W now, so the ratio isn't as good. The Mini head still works better because 100W is just too loud in a lot of rooms. I'll still bring out the big guns in a huge room, outdoors, or with a horrible PA, but that doen't happen all that often.

[dave74]

Re: Sound per Pound

Size only matters in the hard-rock/metal world lol,,,,,,,,,,,,and to the ladies of course!
50w head on a big 212 is the perfect compromise IMO.

[allbutromeo]

Re: Sound per Pound

Size only matters in the hard-rock/metal world lol,,,,,,,,,,,,and to the ladies of course!
50w head on a big 212 is the perfect compromise IMO.

This is my preference, but a Mesa 1×12 combo with a 1×12 Thiele extension cab sounds MASSIVE

[Wattage]

Re: Sound per Pound

I love my Dual Terror pound for pound it is a killer

I've run it into 1x10, 1x12, 2x12, 4x10 and 4x12 and it always does what I need

[Mincer]

Re: Sound per Pound

Of course, the 'sound per pound' ratio of the PowerStage 170 & 700 is remarkable, but you'd have to add a good preamp before it. Still, it is an amazing ratio.

[lordsilly]

Re: Sound per Pound

I've often wondered about this. Is there any point in using a 4x12 if you are playing a venue with a decent PA? I mean you're just going to mic up one cone through the PA anyway so what's the point in lugging it around? It seems to me that any difference in a 1X12 setup will be negligible. I'm a bit skeptical of straight to PA on the basis that while most venues have a decent PA only about half have decent monitor setups. Could always take your own powered monitor though I suppose.

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Sound per Pound

Size only matters in the hard-rock/metal world lol,,,,,,,,,,,,and to the ladies of course!
50w head on a big 212 is the perfect compromise IMO.

This is my preference, but a Mesa 1×12 combo with a 1×12 Thiele extension cab sounds MASSIVE

This is also my preference. However I’ve been playing a 100W Splawn for a couple of years now. That amp has a loop volume control so I can get cranked stack tones at reasonable volumes.
Prior to that amp I was using a 50W JCM 800 which was a great set up too.

[dystrust]

Re: Sound per Pound

I've often wondered about this. Is there any point in using a 4x12 if you are playing a venue with a decent PA? I mean you're just going to mic up one cone through the PA anyway so what's the point in lugging it around? It seems to me that any difference in a 1X12 setup will be negligible. I'm a bit skeptical of straight to PA on the basis that while most venues have a decent PA only about half have decent monitor setups. Could always take your own powered monitor though I suppose.

I put the 1x12 on a stand and point it at my head. Problem solved.