Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

[IMENATOR]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

I'd love to try an AMT dual stage pedal through a Powerstage 700 into a full stack of Texas Heat and Swamp Thang speakers.

Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

This is my AMT SS-20 into an Stealth Power Amp, iPhone camera. Distortion comes from the crunch channel cranked and using the guitar volume to go from clean to lead. I may need to do another video just to demonstrate how you can play metal with a Strat using that much gain.

[Jacew]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Maybe there's something of a language barrier at play, but the usage of "gain" in this post isn't entirely correct either.



Gain is a scale; specifically how much signal strength is increased by a stage of amplification be it a pedal, amp, or something else. Passive pickups don't have gain by definition because they don't amplify anything. Active pickups incorporate a preamp stage which can amplify signal, but they're typically designed merely to output a low impedance signal. Low or high output pickups simply produce a weaker or stronger signal respectively.



High gain is absolutely the correct term for these amps. Their preamp stage(s) have large amounts of amplification (gain), and subsequent stages are designed to run out of headroom intentionally causing distortion. With tube amps it's even possible to change the amount of available preamp gain by using different tubes. For example the 12AX7 spec states an amplification factor of 100, while a 5751 has an amplification factor of 70 and a 12AY7 has an amplification factor of 45. These factors literally compare how much gain the given tube provides.

You're right, gain is the "level of amplification", so it doesn't apply to pickups, which are transducers. But it's same in practical sense, so I didn't really thought of that.

Since the gain is limited by the headroom of the tubes in preamp, the high gain preamp produces pretty much same gain as any usual cranked 12ax7 preamp. It's just more distorted. Sure it does that with high gain signal in circuit, but preamp as whole doesn't have more gain.

I mean, you can't get more gain from a tube that it can deliver, no matter how much gain signal that goes in have? Or am I mistaken about it?

[Aceman]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Wayne, ignoring the Gain illuminati here on the technicals....and since you didn't specify exactly what zone of Heavy Metal you are talking about (Scorpions to Slayer or somewhere in between, or more extreme) I'll simply say...

"Yes"

Within 10 feet of me are a Mesa Stiletto Deuce, a Marshall VS100, and a Peavey Express 112. I will gladly play whatever metal you care to hear with any of those, using a Dean Cadillac with a set of Pearly Gates.

With certain pickups or one pedal added to the equation, I can certainly tailor the sound more, but it is not necessary at all. In fact, as the pedal/pickups add hotness, I'll turn the "gain" down...

[PS412]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Yes, it's my preferred way.

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Modern high gain amps don't require either pedals or high output pickups. The voicing and amount of gain available don't need any help. You probably don't want the spongy bass of an A2 pickup if you're playing fast stuff but for sludgier styles that could even help.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

[Diego]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Can you still get high gain for heavy metal even if you don’t use a pedal or have high output pickups?

Yes.

[dystrust]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Since the gain is limited by the headroom of the tubes in preamp, the high gain preamp produces pretty much same gain as any usual cranked 12ax7 preamp. It's just more distorted. Sure it does that with high gain signal in circuit, but preamp as whole doesn't have more gain.

I mean, you can't get more gain from a tube that it can deliver, no matter how much gain signal that goes in have? Or am I mistaken about it?

You're right that a 12AX7 can only amplify so much, but there are other ways to increase the distortion a preamp generates. For comparison the Marshall 2203/2204 and Soldano SLO preamps are a great example because they're actually very similar. The simplest difference is that the Soldano has more gain stages than the Marshall. Since you can't get more gain from a single tube, use more of them. Second, both amps use what's referred to as a cold clipping stage where one or more of the preamp tubes is intentionally biased cold to reduce headroom and thereby increase distortion. Soldano uses a colder bias than Marshall which also increases the amount of distortion an SLO can generate compared to the 2203/2204.

[Jacew]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

You're right that a 12AX7 can only amplify so much, but there are other ways to increase the distortion a preamp generates. For comparison the Marshall 2203/2204 and Soldano SLO preamps are a great example because they're actually very similar. The simplest difference is that the Soldano has more gain stages than the Marshall. Since you can't get more gain from a single tube, use more of them. Second, both amps use what's referred to as a cold clipping stage where one or more of the preamp tubes is intentionally biased cold to reduce headroom and thereby increase distortion. Soldano uses a colder bias than Marshall which also increases the amount of distortion an SLO can generate compared to the 2203/2204.

Maybe it is a language barrier... You seem to relate gain with distortion, which I don't quite get. If amp lowers the headroom with bias, it doesn't have "more gain", it just adds distortion. Same with multiple tubes: The overall level of amplification preamp produces isn't distinctively "more" than single preamp tube. It just has more stages to overdrive.

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Maybe it is a language barrier... You seem to relate gain with distortion, which I don't quite get. If amp lowers the headroom with bias, it doesn't have "more gain", it just adds distortion. Same with multiple tubes: The overall level of amplification preamp produces isn't distinctively "more" than single preamp tube. It just has more stages to overdrive.

That's the colloquial usage of the word gain amongst guitarists, yes.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

[dystrust]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Maybe it is a language barrier... You seem to relate gain with distortion, which I don't quite get. If amp lowers the headroom with bias, it doesn't have "more gain", it just adds distortion. Same with multiple tubes: The overall level of amplification preamp produces isn't distinctively "more" than single preamp tube. It just has more stages to overdrive.

Gain and distortion are related. Clipping (distortion) occurs when the headroom of the circuit is exceeded regardless of where that occurs. If additional gain raises the signal level further, a larger amount of clipping occurs.

It gets complicated when you think about the total gain of a preamp in terms of volume (and compression). With the same power amp, a preamp with fewer stages or less cold clipping will probably be less distorted than one with more stages, more cold clipping, or both. The absolute volume should be similar with both preamps because the power amp itself only has so much headroom. With a theoretical power amp with infinite headroom, the preamp with the most total gain (measured input vs. output) would be loudest regardless of how much clipping occurred along the way.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Can you still get high gain for heavy metal even if you don’t use a pedal or have high output pickups?

Hell Yes !!!
...stock pick ups into a 5150.

[Jacew]

Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups

Gain and distortion are related. Clipping (distortion) occurs when the headroom of the circuit is exceeded regardless of where that occurs. If additional gain raises the signal level further, a larger amount of clipping occurs.

It gets complicated when you think about the total gain of a preamp in terms of volume (and compression). With the same power amp, a preamp with fewer stages or less cold clipping will probably be less distorted than one with more stages, more cold clipping, or both. The absolute volume should be similar with both preamps because the power amp itself only has so much headroom. With a theoretical power amp with infinite headroom, the preamp with the most total gain (measured input vs. output) would be loudest regardless of how much clipping occurred along the way.

Yep. That is exactly what I was trying convey, and why I thought "high gain" to be a bit of a misnomer.