Neural DSP Users?

[Phantasmagoria]

As far as I'm concerned, Mooer & Hotone could come from Timbuktu for all I care. It's got nothing to do with country of origin. The GE300 & Ampero are both great products at prices I'd be an idiot to ignore 'cause of some absolutely hypocritical 'moral issue' (considering the entire industry runs pretty much the way Masta' C described up there & the only real consideration for anyone is how much copying from the competition they can get away with before it becomes a problem...) & both modeler's are as good sounding/feeling as, if not better than anything else that's out there ( .....especially if you figure in price ....or even regardless of price in the case of the GE 300, just based on the sheer amount of features it offers which is unmatched by any other modeler around).

[Masta' C]

Aww, shucks, I was hoping to see where it went!

I just want to draw attention to the fact that an entire industry has grown out of copying circuits in amps and pedals and it's not just one "country" doing it.

The Mooer stuff is interesting. They seem to have cheap clones, but they also have some big brains in the operation. I was sold on their viability when Devin Townsend created the Ocean Machine with them. This is a guy who has signature Framus guitars and Fishman Fluence pickups...just saying!

[Mincer]

Let's not run down the China vs the world rabbit hole in this thread.

[Phantasmagoria]

The Chinese can't even land a man on the moon. Do you think they can model guitar amps?? No way.

Great point.. landing people on the moon = Pffftt! ....nothing tougher than modeling guitar tones out there

Don't get me started on the 'moon-landing' though

[bigcupholder]

Also, it took Boss, Zoom, Line6 30 years to develop modeling to this level. You thing some Chinese kids can duplicate that feat in a couple years? Its all pirated garbage. Westerners should not support it, pay a little more for a Boss GT-1, Pod Go, or Zoom G6.

You're confusing progress on the hardware side with progress on the software side.

The hardware didn't exist until fairly recently. As much as we like to think tube amps are magic, they can be modeled fairly easily by essentially stacking a bunch of multi band compressors. Implementing a system to automatically learn all those parameters takes a matter of weeks, not years. And anyone can buy a Sharc DSP to build around.

The hardware was always the main limitation. The other is spending the time to map out all the knobs and how they interact with each other so that the model isn't just a glorified profile with adjustable gain and EQ.

I'm not defending a company with a track record of blatant copyright infringement (by all means, we definitely need more consumers with ethics), but making an amp modeller is not as difficult as you think.

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

[Top-L]

Well, that's pretty dismissive

But also totally presumptive....

I own a GE300 & a Hotone Ampero & I can tell you they are completely different sounding /feeling modelers to anything else I've played (and I've played most of the ones out there). They also have different UI's etc. Moreover, they're as different from each other as they are from the Boss's, Zoom's, Pod's, Amplifire's etc out there... so your kinda presuming a lot for someone who has'nt even seen/checked one out.

I'm not a westerner but I do come from a country that has actually fought a war with China. So if you're in some way implying that it's ok for me to "support" & buy Chinese stuff but not for anyone else (this coming from a guy who probably has a Chinese phone, laptop/PC,/tablet, TV, washer/dryer, toothbrush, toothpicks etc) at home well, that's a bit of a hoot...

If missing out on a (clearly) better spec'd/priced (and I would say....sounding) product for some lame/misguided "moral/patriotic" reason is your thing then that's cool. But it's also clearly biased and no reflection on the quality of the product (Mooer/Ampero) ..which is frankly about as awesome as they come.

The Chinese can't even land a man on the moon. Do you think they can model guitar amps?? No way.

[Phantasmagoria]

Well, that's pretty dismissive

But also totally presumptive....

I own a GE300 & a Hotone Ampero & I can tell you they are completely different sounding /feeling modelers to anything else I've played (and I've played most of the ones out there). They also have different UI's etc. Moreover, they're as different from each other as they are from the Boss's, Zoom's, Pod's, Amplifire's etc out there... so your kinda presuming a lot for someone who has'nt even seen/checked one out.

I'm not a westerner but I do come from a country that has actually fought a war with China. So if you're in some way implying that it's ok for me to "support" & buy Chinese stuff but not for anyone else (this coming from a guy who probably has a Chinese phone, laptop/PC,/tablet, TV, washer/dryer, toothbrush, toothpicks etc) at home well, that's a bit of a hoot...

If missing out on a (clearly) better spec'd/priced (and I would say....sounding) product for some lame/misguided "moral/patriotic" reason is your thing then that's cool. But it's also clearly biased and no reflection on the quality of the product (Mooer/Ampero) ..which is frankly about as awesome as they come.

[Top-L]

Or maybe not.

Just 'cause they ripped off an Ehx pedal does'nt automatically mean that's all they do. The fact that they were successfully sued by Ehx potentially opened the door for a whole bunch of other similar/successful lawsuits (from everyone they "ripped off") and there are'nt any. So maybe it was a one off incident & they actually do their own thing for the most part. In any case they lost and paid their dues and no doubt learned from their "mistake" So maybe it's time to move on?

The truth is all the modeling/amp/pedal etc companies have a pretty keen interest in their competition & probably do pick up the odd 'tip' (algorithm) from each other albiet in a more sophisticated way than Mooer did with EHX. Speaking of lack of sophistication, a few years ago there was a "boutique" pedal company in the US that was putting Joyo PCB's into their own casing's & marketing them as their own pedals for !0X the cost of the Joyo (and folk on the Gear page etc. were loving them & touting them as the best thing ever ). So yeah, stuff like this happens...

The GE300 is it's own beast. They have a different approach to "Tone Capture" than Kemper to it's "profiling", their amp model's are great and they're not the same as anyone else's (ie they have that signature flavor you mentioned in a previous post), their synth engine is obviously different from EHX's this time (or they's just have been sued successfully again) etc..etc.

You've mentioned being biased against Chinese companies earlier, which is your perogative, but that does'nt mean they make product's that are "inferior" 'cause they're actually not. I mean look at the Kemper Vs Preamp live/GE300 profile/capture comparisons on youtube and it's obvious that neither is uniformly 'superior' to the other.. despite a pretty massive difference in price.

I came across a pretty cool video from this dude a couple days ago & he does a pretty thorough job of reviewing it (inside & outside)

The guy was awarded 75K in a Chinese court. I'm pretty sure his legal costs were more; it was only a moral victory. And he only won because they were so stupid they did not remove his copyrights.

There is nothing westerners can do to stop pirated products flowing out of China. Lets say they somehow manage to close down Mooer. Another company will open up with the same employees, in the same factory, making a nearly identical product.

Also, it took Boss, Zoom, Line6 30 years to develop modeling to this level. You thing some Chinese kids can duplicate that feat in a couple years? Its all pirated garbage. Westerners should not support it, pay a little more for a Boss GT-1, Pod Go, or Zoom G6.

[Phantasmagoria]

Another thing this underscores, is that other new players like Hotone, NUX, Mooer, that have large selection of effects out of the gate, probably stole the code from somewhere (or were smart enough to grab generic algorithms in the public domain.) In fact Mooer was sued for stealing an algorithm from a popular boutique pedal. This tells me that most of the stuff is probably pirated.

Or maybe not.

Just 'cause they ripped off an Ehx pedal does'nt automatically mean that's all they do. The fact that they were successfully sued by Ehx potentially opened the door for a whole bunch of other similar/successful lawsuits (from everyone they "ripped off") and there are'nt any. So maybe it was a one off incident & they actually do their own thing for the most part. In any case they lost and paid their dues and no doubt learned from their "mistake" So maybe it's time to move on?

The truth is all the modeling/amp/pedal etc companies have a pretty keen interest in their competition & probably do pick up the odd 'tip' (algorithm) from each other albiet in a more sophisticated way than Mooer did with EHX. Speaking of lack of sophistication, a few years ago there was a "boutique" pedal company in the US that was putting Joyo PCB's into their own casing's & marketing them as their own pedals for !0X the cost of the Joyo (and folk on the Gear page etc. were loving them & touting them as the best thing ever ). So yeah, stuff like this happens...

The GE300 is it's own beast. They have a different approach to "Tone Capture" than Kemper to it's "profiling", their amp model's are great and they're not the same as anyone else's (ie they have that signature flavor you mentioned in a previous post), their synth engine is obviously different from EHX's this time (or they's just have been sued successfully again) etc..etc.

You've mentioned being biased against Chinese companies earlier, which is your perogative, but that does'nt mean they make product's that are "inferior" 'cause they're actually not. I mean look at the Kemper Vs Preamp live/GE300 profile/capture comparisons on youtube and it's obvious that neither is uniformly 'superior' to the other.. despite a pretty massive difference in price.

I came across a pretty cool video from this dude a couple days ago & he does a pretty thorough job of reviewing it (inside & outside)

[Top-L]

I agree with this. What I've seen of the people in charge there speaks to a high level of integrity and passion, but they still need to execute. That's the bottom line. The cloud stuff is especially weak right now - you can see what it might be, but that's a long way from where it is.

My belief in their FX capabilities lies in the fact that they've been able to deliver quite a few very good FX packages in and around their desktop plugins - they have the talent in house to do it, but how they manage those resources between plugins and the QC is going to determine how well things go forward. but they have proven they can do quality FX and at least have a stable of them to draw from and "port" to the QC - I realize it's not quite that simple, but at least the brainpower IS in-house assuming they can tap it properly and within reasonable time frames.

At this point there's nothing to do but wait and see what they can deliver. I am hoping they get some kind of feature expansion update out the door in the next month or so. They've already dropped a bugfix release so at least that's a moderately good sign.

Agree with all of this. Even if they have the talent in house, they should still contract development from someone who has experience developing plugins, unless their profit margins are so thin they can't afford that.

There are tons of free plugins, DAWs, etc that seem like they could be adapted. Should be a matter of porting code and building in new environment.

Whats not clear to me is the divide between their plugins and the QC. Why are the plugins not already in the QC? Those are highly regarded. There must be contractual restrictions or they are waiting for a larger business plan to come to fruition.

My gut tells me they plan to sell content to end users, and if the box is packed with effects/models, that will cut into their eventual profits. Or if they put content into the QC, it will cut into their plugin sales. So yeah, I do have an uneasy feeling about it.

Another thing this underscores, is that other new players like Hotone, NUX, Mooer, that have large selection of effects out of the gate, probably stole the code from somewhere (or were smart enough to grab generic algorithms in the public domain.) In fact Mooer was sued for stealing an algorithm from a popular boutique pedal. This tells me that most of the stuff is probably pirated.

[RexRemus]

My interest in the product completely hinges upon their development schedule and how quickly they can address things.

As a point of comparison, the Headrush has been around four years and it STILL has a sparse effect section. They recently patched it with some new content, but its STILL really sparse compared to others. Because the effect selection is THIN, I don't seriously consider it. Not because there aren't many effects, but because the pace of the development shows its highly unlikely that they will be added. A box that HUGE should be filled with tons of effects. Its like a bus being powered by a four-banger.

Its not a given that the NDSP will flesh things out. I think they should license effects, that seems like the best path. They will have their hands full with the cloud and desktop control app.

I agree with this. What I've seen of the people in charge there speaks to a high level of integrity and passion, but they still need to execute. That's the bottom line. The cloud stuff is especially weak right now - you can see what it might be, but that's a long way from where it is.

My belief in their FX capabilities lies in the fact that they've been able to deliver quite a few very good FX packages in and around their desktop plugins - they have the talent in house to do it, but how they manage those resources between plugins and the QC is going to determine how well things go forward. but they have proven they can do quality FX and at least have a stable of them to draw from and "port" to the QC - I realize it's not quite that simple, but at least the brainpower IS in-house assuming they can tap it properly and within reasonable time frames.

At this point there's nothing to do but wait and see what they can deliver. I am hoping they get some kind of feature expansion update out the door in the next month or so. They've already dropped a bugfix release so at least that's a moderately good sign.

[Top-L]

Bottom line - the cloud stuff is both great and awful right now - that needs the most work no question. The unit itself as a box that makes guitar tones - it's a joy. Honestly most fun I've had with any piece of gear in many many years. You just get lost for hours playing with it.

My interest in the product completely hinges upon their development schedule and how quickly they can address things.

As a point of comparison, the Headrush has been around four years and it STILL has a sparse effect section. They recently patched it with some new content, but its STILL really sparse compared to others. Because the effect selection is THIN, I don't seriously consider it. Not because there aren't many effects, but because the pace of the development shows its highly unlikely that they will be added. A box that HUGE should be filled with tons of effects. Its like a bus being powered by a four-banger.

Its not a given that the NDSP will flesh things out. I think they should license effects, that seems like the best path. They will have their hands full with the cloud and desktop control app.

[RexRemus]

I still believe they all have their own sonic signatures, but they can all get the job done. I personally don't like the Helix but I know other people get great results with it.

The question is, how easy and how inspiring it is to use? I have always hated tweaking settings with a mouse/keyboard, and I'm sure there are others like me who want the hardware to be inspiring, so I believe the areas of biggest improvement, for all of them is in the UI. Touch screen is mandatory in 2021 imo. The QC ported a visual cab sim onto the device which is very cool. I'm curious if dragging the mics around on a virtual speaker is worthwhile or a gimmick? They could eventually have something like a version of Torpedo WOS in there.

I recently tried and returned a GT1000, largely because the UI was so bad. After using the touch interface of the G11, I just couldn't accept the GT1000. Even if it was the most amazing sounding box, it would have gone back. Technology moves so quickly you can't rest on your laurels.




What were you using prior to the QC? I've been reasing the thread on TGP and the only "real" issue I've read about is a ground loop type noise in some setups. It will be interesting to see how quickly they can add effects. My cheap(ish) Zoom G11 has a broad selection of different effect types, because they have been building these boxes for 30 years. You would think that the NDSP people would be able to "find" some algorithms to flesh out the effect section. Unfortunately, many of the Chinese boxes like NUX and Hotone come out of the gate with a ton of effects, likely because the software is pirated from some hacked device. NDSP would have to do it legally.

BTW you posted some broken links.

I think the links are ok now? I refreshed and I see them.

Honestly, it's very easy to use and just play with ideas on the grid. You can certainly get bad sounds out of it, but that's mostly user fault than any of the models or captures haha. I honestly find myself more inspired to play than I have been in a long time. I WANT to play with it, which makes me WANT to play guitar - that's actually a huge win for me right off the bat.

The cabsim and mics are good, in the end, it's just a fancy representation of many IRs blended and swapped in as you move the mics around - the IRs reflect the mics and their positions on the appropriate cab. So if you value and believe in IRs in general, and have spent time mixing and matching varying mics and mic positions from those and/or on real cabs - then it's more or less the same thing. I guess my point is - they're not "faking" it in the sense of trying to artificially adjust EQ or whatever to make it dull when you move off the dust cap - it moves to a real IR with that mic at that position on that cabinet and the response is what you'd get. They've just hidden that behind an intuitive UI, and you can still load your own IRs if you prefer - they're just static (as you'd expect) so no fancy UI - though you can still use a pair of them and pan them per cab block.

Previously I had my old ADA MP-2 (that I still love) and have had a few borrowed amps here and there for a time (mesas mostly) but for most recent things and anything I've recorded recently it's all been ampsims anyway (several from Neural which is how I found the QC in the first place, but others as well). I found the convenience and capabilities of modern ampsims to just be really good, it's nothing at all like 10 years ago or even 5. So in a way, the QC is just a larger commitment/transition to an "ampsim in a box" mindset for me. It's more powerful than any single desktop ampsim and its standalone portability makes it super attractive to me for when I visit my friend in LA and we want to play - I can have "my" entire rig in a carry-on bag.

I'm confident Neural will get the FX situation sorted out - what's there is good, they just lack for options compared to the competition, but it's very new and as you said, I believe they are doing it the "hard way" and not trying to just ripoff something and get **** out the door. I respect that, and if it's really a huge problem today, it's got FX loops - plug your favorite pedals into it, or even your favorite VSTs from your DAW - you can loop that in as well. Sure that last one isn't entirely portable (it is if you bring a laptop) but still - if you're worried about recording mostly it's trivial to get all the reverbs and delays and modulation fx you want. it's not a fatal shortcoming.

Bottom line - the cloud stuff is both great and awful right now - that needs the most work no question. The unit itself as a box that makes guitar tones - it's a joy. Honestly most fun I've had with any piece of gear in many many years. You just get lost for hours playing with it.

[Top-L]

I did! Just this past Friday, have been buried in it most of the weekend. Any questions or whatever feel free to fire away!

Initial impressions - It's definitely a 1.0 product, but a very good one. Not without flaws but does what it needs to do quite well. I can't compare it against any other modelers/profilers directly but I don't see it being amazingly better or anything - in that when you get to the pinnacle of existing digital sim tech we're in the 90th percentile plus of "quality" and matching a physical amp - at least in a mix. So when it was 60%, it was very easy to tell the product that was 80% was MUCH better. Now it's like fighting over 2-3% differences and I think things are just good all around.

I still believe they all have their own sonic signatures, but they can all get the job done. I personally don't like the Helix but I know other people get great results with it.

The question is, how easy and how inspiring it is to use? I have always hated tweaking settings with a mouse/keyboard, and I'm sure there are others like me who want the hardware to be inspiring, so I believe the areas of biggest improvement, for all of them is in the UI. Touch screen is mandatory in 2021 imo. The QC ported a visual cab sim onto the device which is very cool. I'm curious if dragging the mics around on a virtual speaker is worthwhile or a gimmick? They could eventually have something like a version of Torpedo WOS in there.

I recently tried and returned a GT1000, largely because the UI was so bad. After using the touch interface of the G11, I just couldn't accept the GT1000. Even if it was the most amazing sounding box, it would have gone back. Technology moves so quickly you can't rest on your laurels.

That being said - it IS good. It's very easy to get a solid preset dialed in, the included amps and captures and IRs are all quite well done. The FX selection is weak compared to the competition but I have no issues with the quality of what's there.

All that being said I've barely scratched the surface of the device, I plan to do some MIDI programming next weekend and just keep learning it. I haven't been as excited to just "play" as I am with this in several years. It's honestly a joy to play with.

What were you using prior to the QC? I've been reasing the thread on TGP and the only "real" issue I've read about is a ground loop type noise in some setups. It will be interesting to see how quickly they can add effects. My cheap(ish) Zoom G11 has a broad selection of different effect types, because they have been building these boxes for 30 years. You would think that the NDSP people would be able to "find" some algorithms to flesh out the effect section. Unfortunately, many of the Chinese boxes like NUX and Hotone come out of the gate with a ton of effects, likely because the software is pirated from some hacked device. NDSP would have to do it legally.

BTW you posted some broken links.

[RexRemus]