Digital Modelers

[Top-L]

The "Big 3" was a notion concocted on TGP 5-6 years ago when the Helix hit the scene. There was a short period of time when there were three processors that cost 1.5K+ and could load IRs. IR loading was the "firewall" that separated good from bad.

Alot has changed since then. Now you can get IR loaders in $200 pedals, and the Helix UI (which was the only reason it was in that "club" imo) has been surpassed by better interfaces.

Fractal and Line6 have ported their algos into "entry level" devices, showing its not the price of the box, but the quality of the software. The line between "Big 3" and others completely gone now. Several things that changed...

1) Now everyone can load IRs (it was IRs all along that made "high end" sound better than "low end'.)
2) Better UIs have surpassed the Helix.
3) New capture technology seems poised to remove Kemper from its throne. QC demo videos seem to show it is more accurate than Kemper and its UI is orders of magnitude better.

Some people still living in the past.

[Gtrjunior]

Since I have recently ventured down this road myself I will share my advice/experiences that i have had. It is vitally important to understand your wants/needs/expectations going into this process. I wouldn't waste time with any second tier products of any kind. Understand the strengths and weaknesses of each product/brand. Each product/brand has them. You really get into trouble when you switch horses mid stream and try making one product into another product. SPECIFICALLY....NOTHING touches the Kemper for what the Kemper does. SPECIFICALLY....NOTHING touches the AXE FX for what it does. SPECIFICALLY.....NOTHING touches the Line 6 stuff for what it does. The kicker is knowing what you need, want, have already that aligns and cooperates with these products. You also need to know what you really are willing to spend.

NONE of these products are going to be your amps/cabs etc. They may be better, they may be worse.They may respond different but sound the same. They may feel different but sound the same. They may be close enough for rock and roll and you may be good with that. We all want certain things and there are no rules if you are happy. I initially went with the Line 6 HX Stomp and it is cool and capable of a ton of things. I got the Kemper (non powered) with foot controller as a Christmas present. That being said....I was pushed in a way down the Kemper path. Had I picked on my own I was always 60/40 Axe vs. Kemper. The power section on the Kemper is mediocre at best. The unpowered Kemper with various powering options I feel is much better but everything in the chain changes everything and when you are working with profiles or snap shots and your chain is colored your sound is altered. It could be for the better. It could be worse. I ended up getting a Fryette power amp (LX II) that doesn't color but provides feel and dynamics like a tube amp would and have been happy. I got the Kemper Kab for a neutral sound so my profits could be pure. I am used to running a couple of 4x12 cabs so this was a major shift going to a FRFR type cab (1x12) as you can imagine. The 4x12 cabs I have colored things. The other amps, power amps I used with the Kemper colored things. Was it ok? Sure! Could it work in a pinch? Absolutely? Was I happy? No.....not in every possible way. Going FOH...no issues. Going direct to record, no issues. My issues came with how the amp was in the room. The things I did (and money spent) solved that. I have yet to purchase any profiles and doubt I will. I will learn to tweak and make profiles with the amps I have. I have a lot of fantastic amps and see no reason to purchase a profile of something I already have. At the end of the day, my Kemper rig more focused on studio usage than gig usage. It is also rack mounted and with the weight of that and the power amp and Kemper Kab and footswitch I am back at the tube amp rig when it comes to portability. Does it sound goos? YES! Am I happy? YES!

If I were using it to gig heavily and get rid of amps altogether I would get the Kemper floorboard, use in ears and grab the SD Powerstage and maybe the Kemper Kab in place of ears or in addition to. Depends on what you like. You will sound amazing with a rig like that. You could do similar with the Line 6 HX stomp as well. It would be less expensive.

The Kemper is the most amp like in its user interface. The Kemper is nothing but snap shots of entire rigs. It captures everything. That is why neutrality is so key. The Axe has great amp models and effects, I think better than the Kemper but you will be tweaking and tweaking. It sounds good out of the box and the more time you tweak the better(hopefully and most likely) it will sound. I have nothing bad to say about the unit. It is by far the deepest dive of the bunch and when you consider what you get, it is a wonderful value, as is the Kemper. The Helix has a great user interface and is pretty straight forward to work. It sounds great and offers a lot. I can't say anything bad about it.

To me, it is also important to consider the long game with updates, support, etc. The Kemper has the most power in this regard because a lot of what it does is user dependent. They have always given free updates etc. but again, you can profile amps for days and not use models so the user always has some bit of control. AXE has great support as does Line 6. If I had to pick a company dropping a products updates and moving away from one of their offerings I would think Line 6 would do so first. I don't see this happening anytime soon on any of these flagship products but it is worth being aware of.

I apologize for my long rant. I want to rant more but will do so from specific places of interest rather than me just babbling about things. Ask away, I will do my best to help. I stayed away from all of this for a very long time. I was overwhelmed and I know others are/were too. Any help I can provide I will do so. Good luck!

By all means....babble away!! Haha! I’m right at the beginning of learning a lot all of this and your experience is valuable. Thanks for taking the time to write that.

[Ewizard]

I agree with pretty much everything Bogner and Top-L have said. Several years ago there were only a few players in the game that truly had a product that stood out. Now there are several products that, while not a knock out of the park, excel at something better than another.

I love tube amps, don't know for sure I could ever 100% get away from them, but I am really not interested in dragging guitar cabs around. Not to mention, I am quite tired of only having a couple of options at my disposal. I have been looking for a digital solution for years. I don't need 100 amps, so my most recent modeling purchase was the Strymon Iridium. It was a pretty big letdown honestly. Despite the options and ability to use it as a multitude of different solutions, it just couldn't cut it. It wasn't until I got a Two Notes Captor X that I realized how good IR's have gotten. The Strymon wasn't doing any IR it held any justice. The Captor X sounded right, directly out of the box! What does that mean and what am I getting at? I'm beginning to find that there is no one solution that excels at ALL of the things you really want.

I think that the Fractal stuff is probably the best there is. I think that Two Notes is the leader in IR solutions. Kemper has a really great idea in capturing an amp as you desire it to be as opposed to trying to model the whole of the amp. There are shortcomings to that approach too. Also, it turns it into a money game. I imagine getting capture packs is sort of like IR's, you end up paying to get the one want. An amp snapshot is not the one answer either though even if it is free. I think IR's will advance a little more, but for the moment, they are not the weak link.

I have been designing a tube amp for about the past 6 months that is meant to be a pedal platform amp. All that means is that I wanted an amplifier that was more or less a blank slate. As little in the signal path as possible, so that the sound you hear out the other end is as much your guitar and pedal as possible. Why would I want that type of amp? It seems to me everyone considers either a VOX ac30 type amp or a Fender DR to be THE pedal platform amp format. These amps both have their own sound/thing going for them, and it works. Recently JHS, Revv, and a few other companies have released " Pedal Platform " amps, with Revv even integrating Two Notes into the design. I feel that this will be the new trend. An amp that is neutral, perhaps has modeling in it, or not, and will be able to load IR's. There is something a tube amp does that NO MODELER can do yet; have the feel and reaction that players truly want. Another thing modelers don't do is tread their own ground. It is not often, if ever, that you hear people clamoring about the digital/virtual amp that doesn't actually exist in real life. A player wants and buys a Benson amp because it is the amp they want and it actually exists. No one goes out of their way to find a digital amp that doesn't exist in a tangible hardware version. So modelers will NEVER replace actual amplifiers made by boutique builders, or the everyday names you trip and fall on. Finally, most players use pedals to get something they need. Fuzz can only be done from a pedal for instance. So pedals will never fall from grace in a typical player's rig. The next big thing will be finding a way to get a modeled amp that actually feels and plays like a real amp, that fits on a pedalboard and takes pedals, or emulates pedals like no other modeler has before, and have the most amazing IR cabinet and mic emulations known to man.

That right now can only be done by having multiple tools. The amp you want, the pedals you want, and the IR loader that slays all others. For most, this is sort of attainable. The IR solutions are here. That solution is dialed. Modeling is also just about there but still needs a little more refinement. The pedal boom is upon us. You can find anything you want, made in at least three different price tiers. The hardest part right now is finding a modeler that truly kills at doing your amp of choice. This is why amps like the Revv D20 exist, they still beat modelers.

So which is the best modeler to get and will get you away from having to bring an amp and cab? I think that Fractal is the best you can get still. You have no excuse to not be able to get the sound in your head from one. The problem is that it is so capable that you will always be finding a new way to get that sound in your head. It is also a software-based machine. It WILL NOT last 20 years and you'll be lucky if it is still supported in 5 years. The same goes for any of the other options though, so at least with the Fractal, you will have the best you can get before it is no longer supported. Right now, I am working on a slimmed-down solution. I want to have the pedals I want for the core of my sound, the amp that acts like a real amp, and the IR solution so I don't need to drag a guitar cab out with me. This means for me anyway, having at least three things, the pedal, the amp, and the Captor X. Which means that the Revv D20 is probably the only option that will combine at least two of those solutions into one thing!

[Metalman_666]

What do you mean when you say you can only run one amp at a time?

AX8 can only have one virtual amp going at any given time, but boy are they still great sounding amps.

Helix lets you have two amps (or more, if you get creative with using both Paths) simultaneously, so you can blend the AC30 and a Friedman in one mono sound, or put one amp on the left side and the other on the right. Great for blending and creating tones you have always wanted to try

Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

[Gtrjunior]

AX8 can only have one virtual amp going at any given time, but boy are they still great sounding amps.

Helix lets you have two amps (or more, if you get creative with using both Paths) simultaneously, so you can blend the AC30 and a Friedman in one mono sound, or put one amp on the left side and the other on the right. Great for blending and creating tones you have always wanted to try

Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

Gotcha....I watched a few YouTube vids and got the gist of what was going on.

[Synapsys]

On the Helix running FW3.10 you can have gapless preset switching, if the chain is kept in Path1.

[Gtrjunior]

I’m looking at the Kemper Stage now.
I like the idea that they really make one product that they support whereas the AxeFX keeps reinventing their lineup and eventually stop supporting them. Sure, they will continue to operate but at some point sooner rather than later they will become obsolete. I get that eventually all of these products will become obsolete but I feel like maybe the Kemper will be around longer.

Plus, for $1700 and an expression pedal I can be in the game with the Kemper. The AxeFX will require the unit plus the floor pedalboard at the cost of $2700.

[SirJackdeFuzz II]

In a mix with a full band
it is indistinguishable

Only you would know

I tested a Line 6 Helix, and the 5150 simulation sounded NOTHING like my actual 5150. Not even close.
I messed around with setting for 2 days . . . no go.

OK, the Line 6 Helix is not in the same price as a Kemper, but still, at $1700.00 you would expect much better.

[Bogner]

I’m looking at the Kemper Stage now.
I like the idea that they really make one product that they support whereas the AxeFX keeps reinventing their lineup and eventually stop supporting them. Sure, they will continue to operate but at some point sooner rather than later they will become obsolete. I get that eventually all of these products will become obsolete but I feel like maybe the Kemper will be around longer.

Plus, for $1700 and an expression pedal I can be in the game with the Kemper. The AxeFX will require the unit plus the floor pedalboard at the cost of $2700.

This is true. The Kemper will be obsolete last because the user has a lot of the playing cards when it comes down to the product and what sounds you use. Of course they have been great at updates and additions (all free) so I feel it will be the least likely or last to become obsolete....but this is my opinion. Just to show you how sick I am I have considered getting a Stage for certain live situations and to tote around to jam with others and do outside work etc. It's a very nice unit.

On a side note - I am hearing a lot of talk on a new Kemper product coming out. I have no idea if it is 100% certain nor do I know when it will be available. What I am hearing is a smaller unit to compete with the Line 6 HX Stomp category. Features and benefits etc, I have no idea nor do I know price point. In that little niche the HX Stomp is King and I could see Kemper making a smaller unit at a more cost effective price point and hitting it out of the park. I don't know if this is going to happen, again, just rumors at the moment. If indeed this project does launch, it could be a very good way for you to get into the game and have what you need and more without dropping quite as much cash. I would go this way over the stage PERSONALLY since I already have my other Kemper Rig. The Stage is indeed nice because you have the floorboard and to me, it makes no sense having a Kemper and no foot controller. Another Side Note - I also hear that a powered stage unit may be coming as well.

I wouldn't let this info delay you if you want to jump today on the Kemper Stage unit. If it is a ways down the road before you would make a purchase it may be worth keeping an eye out for what is in store with these new additions. Either way, I think it would be a wonderful product for you and for what you want to do.

[Gtrjunior]

This is true. The Kemper will be obsolete last because the user has a lot of the playing cards when it comes down to the product and what sounds you use. Of course they have been great at updates and additions (all free) so I feel it will be the least likely or last to become obsolete....but this is my opinion. Just to show you how sick I am I have considered getting a Stage for certain live situations and to tote around to jam with others and do outside work etc. It's a very nice unit.

On a side note - I am hearing a lot of talk on a new Kemper product coming out. I have no idea if it is 100% certain nor do I know when it will be available. What I am hearing is a smaller unit to compete with the Line 6 HX Stomp category. Features and benefits etc, I have no idea nor do I know price point. In that little niche the HX Stomp is King and I could see Kemper making a smaller unit at a more cost effective price point and hitting it out of the park. I don't know if this is going to happen, again, just rumors at the moment. If indeed this project does launch, it could be a very good way for you to get into the game and have what you need and more without dropping quite as much cash. I would go this way over the stage PERSONALLY since I already have my other Kemper Rig. The Stage is indeed nice because you have the floorboard and to me, it makes no sense having a Kemper and no foot controller. Another Side Note - I also hear that a powered stage unit may be coming as well.

I wouldn't let this info delay you if you want to jump today on the Kemper Stage unit. If it is a ways down the road before you would make a purchase it may be worth keeping an eye out for what is in store with these new additions. Either way, I think it would be a wonderful product for you and for what you want to do.

Interesting. The only thing swaying me away from a smaller unit is if it were too feature lite. The Stage is essentially the same as the toaster, just in a different footprint.
I see some used on reverb and that would save a couple hundred dollars, but I feel like that’s probably not significant enough to forego the factory warranty etc.

I’ve been contemplating selling my ‘86 JCM 800 2204 too.
Truth is, I don’t use it. My Splawn does the Marshall thing better than the Marshall. And I suspect that the Kemper does as well.

[ErikH]

The only place I like to use a modeler where I have to tweak and save, and tweak some more, is at home when I'm practicing. I use headphones majority of the time so digital modeling is perfect for that situation. When I'm playing with the band, I want it as simple as possible. There are so many options out there, and not just in digital modeling but with analog stuff as well, that something is bound to work for darn near everybody. I love the Fly Rig stuff. I'm using it in my every day rig with a few pedals, even though the purpose is to use with existing back line and the quick fly gig and all. I have the DI solution and can run it to an amp on the stage if I need my own monitor. And no programming. It's not like I need a tons of different tones. I make it work with what I have.

[ErikH]

I’ve been contemplating selling my ‘86 JCM 800 2204 too.
Truth is, I don’t use it. My Splawn does the Marshall thing better than the Marshall. And I suspect that the Kemper does as well.

The cool thing about the Kemper is you can create a profile of YOUR 2204 in it, and the Splawn too. You can keep the amps to at least do that. That's appealing to me but I don't have the cash for Kemper and it's more than I'd use anyway, but the features are really cool.

[Top-L]

I tested a Line 6 Helix, and the 5150 simulation sounded NOTHING like my actual 5150. Not even close.
I messed around with setting for 2 days . . . no go.

OK, the Line 6 Helix is not in the same price as a Kemper, but still, at $1700.00 you would expect much better.

So much of it is marketing. That is why I respect the companies that provide their own amp simulations "in the style of" without naming after a specific amp.

When this has come up before, usually the guy who works at the company says "it sounds just like OUR ____".

If the amp models are virtually identical, then there should be an endless series of manufacturer videos where they A/B between the amp and their model direct to the loop, to show prospective customers that they are indeed identical.

[Mincer]

With modeling, there will *always* be something new out. Buy what you need today, just like if you were buying a laptop. You might use a laptop for 15 years, but chances are you will get 5 out of it and get frustrated enough to buy another.

[Bogner]

Interesting. The only thing swaying me away from a smaller unit is if it were too feature lite. The Stage is essentially the same as the toaster, just in a different footprint.
I see some used on reverb and that would save a couple hundred dollars, but I feel like that’s probably not significant enough to forego the factory warranty etc.

I’ve been contemplating selling my ‘86 JCM 800 2204 too.
Truth is, I don’t use it. My Splawn does the Marshall thing better than the Marshall. And I suspect that the Kemper does as well.

If your Marshall is in good shape, I would keep it but that is me. I rarely sell anything. Call me crazy but I am personally hesitant to buy used pedals and used modeling gear. I would personally go new if I was going to go that route. There are deals to be had so discounts are available on new Kemper stuff for sure. Additionally, if your Marshall is an oversized paperweight, I understand moving it to get something you would use.