Tube Rolling

[Oldfart_Shredman]

Tube Rolling!

Do you do it?
and if so, is there a combination you keep coming back to?


I play with the cheap side of NOS or almost NOS preamp tubes as there's still some decent finds out there around the $25-40 range if you have patience and look around on Flea bay, Reverb, Etsy et al.

Through 3 different amps: Hughes & Kettner Tube 50, a Metro Amp Marshall Plexi 1959 kit, and my current Phaez I keep coming back to the same combination: Mullard in V1 and a Sylvania in the PI. The Mullard seems to make it nice and round and compliments the mids while the Sylvania gives the sound more of a snarl/teeth at the end. I've had similar results with a Tung Sol in the PI but there's just something about a Sylvania.

The Huey (H&K) is an early model preceeding the Tri-Amp line and has what I call that thick syrupy gain on the lead channel. That pre tube combo really surprised me in this amp since despite the name the preamp is basically solid state that's then sent through a tube amp. It definitely made the amp more Marshall sounding than an attempt at a Mesa.

In the Marshall kit I knew pres would probably make a big difference, it's actually what got me into tube rolling in the first place. I was lucky enough to find a Telefunken long smooth plate and have it in the PI. I would probably try the Telefunken in all my amps PI position but finding a good one that's affordable seems like winning the lottery. Not sure I've ever seen one in decent shape/close to being matched for less than $60

My latest amp is most definitely Marshall-esque but I wasn't 100% sure if the combo would work because it uses a 12AT7 for the PI, but sure enough it works exactly the same. I've got a Schecter that everytime I played it through my current amp I thought was kind of dark sounding with a JAN 12AT7 and a Mullard 12AT7 so I decided on putting in a brighter sounding bridge pickup. Haven't done the pickup switch yet and I played that guitar yesterday after replacing the Mullard 12AT7 with a Sylvania and now the same guitar sounds substantial and full, but not dark at all with the same exact settings as before.

If someone had told me years ago that pre tubes would make that big of a difference I doubt if I would have believed them.

Looking forward to hearing other people's experiences.

[Bogner]

Tubes can make a difference but not as much of a difference as internet lore/hype would like to make it out to be. I have yet to play an amp I didn't like, change the tubes and all of a sudden fall in love with it. I have also yet to find an amp I love, change the tubes and all of a sudden dislike the amp. In my experience, the changes are minimal and in some cases I could say worthwhile for the most part but I am not personally convinced overall that the juice was really worth the squeeze. YMMV

[GuitarStv]

It goes something like this:
Speaker > Amp Design > Tubes

There's a little difference to different tubes . . . some are lower noise, some are bassier, some have different mid characteristics . . . but I agree with Bogner. If you don't like the way your amp sounds before changing tubes you're not going to like it afterwards (unless the tubes in there are bad). If you want to dramatically change the sound of your amp, change the speaker.

[ErikH]

When I had my Marshall JCM 900 MkIII head, changing V1 was what made the most noticeable difference. V2 and V3 were less so but I always ran the same brand/type in all 3 positions. The best I put in it were a set of JJ Tesla 12AX7's. They had the best signal to noise ratio and gave the amp the best tone. I was running it through an Avatar 2x12 w/ Celestion Classic Lead 80's.

[jeremy]

i agree, the speaker is a more drastic change but i roll tubes whenever i get a new amp to see what sounds and feels best. i think the more simple the circuit the more difference you may notice as well. if you have six gain stages you probably wont notice a much overall change in two of them, where if you have three, then changing two should be much more audible

[Jeffblue]

I believe the biggest changes would be by using the NOS tube variants to change gain stages for overall tone. I have a Bandmaster Reverb head that I changed the phase inverter 12AT7 for a 5965 (gain drop from 60 to 47 and a quieter tube) and the reverb driver tube (12AT7 to 5814A high-grade 12AU7, gain drop from 60 to 20 to mellow out harshness) and I'm quite happy with the results. I always prefer to use NOS tubes.

[beaubrummels]

For me, tubes, speakers, pickups, etc. all can effect similar amounts of differences - subtle, but valuable. That last 5% of quality can be the difference between frustration and satisfaction. I do tube roll. Agree with ErikH, V1 is most significant, followed by power tubes. Type, brand and design make a difference. The combination I settle on depends on which amp. But in general, the tubes I've liked the best for the music I make using the amps I have:

NOS Mullard 10M ECC83
TAD 12AX7A-C
Groove Tubes 12AX7C
Ruby 12AX7C5
JJ ECC83S
Vokshod 12AX7VKA

Tung Sol 6V6GT

NOS Sylvania 5881

JJ KT77
EH 6CA7
TAD EL34STR

Valve Art KT66

Note, these are how the tubes are branded. It would take closer inspection and research to determine the factories they came from. Several may have all come from the same factory, for example, all the 12AX7 C types I believe are all Shuagang, it's just the brand companies test batches at various levels to weed out bad or bad sounding tubes.

[Oldfart_Shredman]

I agree with every response.
If you don't like the sound of your amp to begin with then you either need another amp or a change in speakers. I don't think speaker changes gets the attention it deserves when it comes to tone by many.

Tubes are another part of the signal chain kind of comperable to a cord or strings in my opinion. Tube rolling is playing with shades of gray tonewise to a degree, kind of like changing the brand of guitar strings you use. I am always amazed though at how an amp's overall response changes with different preamp tubes from brighter to darker, or spongier to a sharper attack when hitting a chord or vica versa although the changes can be rather subtle.

Reading all the responses and giving it some thought, maybe it comes down to more of a feel factor when playing then anything else.
Just thinking out loud.

[JMP/HBE]

I swap them but not "roll" them.
These young whipper-snappers & their lingo.

[Ewizard]

I am in the camp that NOS tubes and the " tube rolling " idealism is purely a designed market. GT tubes are probably the grandfather of creating NOS tube hype and creating the NOS tube and " rolling " market. After all, they sold tubes that they didn't make, so how do you sell more, you find a way to sell old tubes that you bought for pennies on the dollar.

Keep in mind that an NOS tube made 50 years ago only cost .25 cents at the time. Almost ALL current NOS tubes are warehouse clearance items that were bought CHEAP to clear out all the shelves they were consuming. There isn't anything particularly special about a tube made 50 years ago, except perhaps that it lived 50 years on a shelf and still works. DO they sound different than modern production tubes? Sure, just as each NOS tube brand sounds different from the other.

The market was fabricated and now being taken advantage of. There is certainly a scarcity of NOS tubes, but then why bother using them? If they will soon be gone and none are exactly alike, then you are buying an expensive tube to burn up ( literally ) and never be able to replace. So will current production tubes be NOS tubes in 30 years and be considered the epidemy of tube options?

Different tubes do sound a little bit different. NONE will ever take an amp from meh to OMG or visa versa. They will all just sound a little different. If you don't like X brand in your amp, then try another brand. You may find that JJ's sound better than the EHX offerings. The big thing to consider is that ALL the current new tubes you buy, are all made in three different factories. So many of the different brands have the exact same tube, it just has their name on it instead. NOS is a hyped market, tube rolling does not require NOS tubes and every tube will sound ever so slightly different, but never enough to make or break an amp.

[Mincer]

I've done it a few times, but after the 3rd or 4th combination, I have to admit I don't remember what the first one was like. I started thinking that 'these were vintage & expensive, so they sound better' but that wasn't always the case. There were never any combinations that BLOW ME AWAY. Variations of the same thing. I'd much rather test out amps and get the right one.

[beaubrummels]

I've had tube changes solve specific problems for me, like reduce/alter the 'fizz', or change the point of break-up perfect for what I needed, or soften the top end or tame harsh mids. It's similar to changing pickups in guitars.

[Oldfart_Shredman]

I've had tube changes solve specific problems for me, like reduce/alter the 'fizz', or change the point of break-up perfect for what I needed, or soften the top end or tame harsh mids. It's similar to changing pickups in guitars.

Same here, although it's been close on occassions I don't think it has ever been quite as big a change as a new pickup for me, but they sure can change some amp reaction characteristics.

I'm not trying to get others to do this, I was just curious if others here were also doing it. It can be alot of fun and inexpensive IF you look around for deals.

[dave74]

Well worth it to at least try a few of the main brands in the v1., and in some amps the v1 and v2, depends on your gain levels and if noise is an issue or not.
It's not the amp that works better with a specific tube, it's about finding your favorite sound with your own setup.

Of course you will ultimately gain and eq the amp into the same realm no matter which tubes you run, but finding the right fit for your gear and style is a better place to start.

Now if you are someone who constantly flips amps anyways then why bother, it won't make enough of an improvement to satisfy if you want a totally new sound.
Cabs make the most difference in the total sonic footprint. People would be shocked at how vastly different amps can sound quite close when ran into the exact same cab.

[t1r12003]

Listen to speaker shootouts on YouTube and hear the difference. Listen to some tube shootouts, Pete Thorn did some on 12AX7’s and EL34’s. I could hardly tell a difference. Granted it’s Youtube, compression, average headphones, etc. I rolled tubes too though. Found JJ 12AX7’s a little dark but great in certain high gain amps. V1 makes most difference for sure, both clean and gain hits that. Sovtek 12AX7 LPS in phase inverter always a favorite. To me it seemed to add some depth like turning a resonance knob up even if the amp didn’t have one. Recently tried a few Mullard 12AX7’s and seemed smoother to me on gain. All of this may be making 1% or 2% difference but hey that’s why we all love this and do it.