Anyone Have a Badlander 25?

[Top-L]

Oh, the Mesa 25W's do sound good! And they record beautifully a medium-ish volumes. But it's just the nature of all 15-25W 2xEL34 amps to sound narrow and compressed when they're at band-level volumes. Mesa, EVH, Orange, or any, for that matter.

TBH, I had a Peavey Classic 50/50 EL84 poweramp that I purchased new two decades ago, and it couldn't hold a candle to the 120 Watt 6L6 XXX that replaced it.

Even a 100 Watt EL84 amp doesn't really deliver for rock and metal.

The El84s seemed to disappear for nearly two decades and popped up more recently in these lunchbox amps. I am sceptical. If they were so great, they'd be used in full size heads.

[Rex_Rocker]

TBH, I had a Peavey Classic 50/50 EL84 poweramp that I purchased new two decades ago, and it couldn't hold a candle to the 120 Watt 6L6 XXX that replaced it.

Even a 100 Watt EL84 amp doesn't really deliver for rock and metal.

The El84s seemed to disappear for nearly two decades and popped up more recently in these lunchbox amps. I am sceptical. If they were so great, they'd be used in full size heads.

The reason most companies use EL84's more than full-size tubes (like some companies are using) or even 6V6's is because they need less beefy power transformers to be able to supply them enough voltage/current. And low-wattage amps are usually built to a price point, and transformers are probably the most expensive parts in amps, so...

Even in low-wattage amps, if the starved voltage big-bottle tubes are not done right, they sound bad turned up. Like the Krank Rev Jr. I had one that sounded like wet fart turned up.

I've heard the Marshall 20W's and the PRS MT15 do better. Surely the Soldano Hot Rod 25/SLO30 does better too.

[Phantasmagoria]

Don't really get the hate for El84's & I don't think generalizations work here either. i"ve got 30 watt heads running big bottles (Cocognani Brutus Live..runs pretty much any octal tube) and EL84's (Laboga The Beast's '30 Plus' & 'Classic' ) and they both sound great for metal as well as solo's and stuff. Big Bottels do tend to sound a bit edgier & EL84's are often rounder sweeter butthat's not nessesarily a bad thing for metal (or solo's) and not always the case either

The tranny in the Brutus is pretty much the same size as the one's in the Laboga's (They're both pretty huge for 30 watter's) .


Laboga 30W EL84




Brutus 30W 5881 (Can run anything including KT88's)



It's Basically the way the amp is laid out & constructed that counts. I mean look at the the way Bluguitar AMP 1 Iridium & Mercury amps sound with that dinky nanotube in them (Pretty monstrous!)

Having said thst I sure as hell hope there are no plans to discontinue te dual rec in favour of the Badlander, not that it sounds bad to my ears by any means..

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't hate on EL84's. I've tried the Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 40 or whatever. It sounds pretty good and loud enough to keep up with a drummer.

I specified in my post that it was 15-25W 2xEL84 amps that don't do it for me. For metal, once you get them going, they all sound shrill, farty, or shrill and farty. And that's if you can get them loud enough. Because some of them just don't keep up. I've owned the EVH LBX 1 and 2, the Dark Terror, the Tiny Terror, and I've tried the Laney Ironheart... whatever the small one is called, and the Mini Rectifier. All OK, especially recorded. With maybe the exception of the Tiny Terror. But in a live setting with a full band, they just wouldn't cut it. And some of them don't even sound good turned way down either like the Mini Rec or the EVH LBX II.

And also, the fact that they're running big-bottle tubes doesn't automatically make a lunchbox amp better. Example was my Krank, that sounded like wet fart in a full-band scenario. It recorded soooooo well turned a bit down, though. But I'm just an enemy of cathode-biased amps for metal, TBH.

[dr_m]

Well, the fact is that some of the greatest amps in history have EL84s - like Matchless, Vox. etc. Personally, I like big bottle tubes a whole lot more. I wish Mesa Boogie would have at least used 6V6s instead of EL84s but the fact is, they sound really good as they're designed. I'll tell you an EL84 amp only a fool would knock - the Friedman Pink Taco. It's loud, punchy, and sounds incredibly good. Actually, the Little Sister is also as good.

The problem is there are some common constraints these days. Primarily money and loudness. If you're stuck on 100w amps but don't play them at ear piercing volume then you're kind of preaching a faulty gospel. Believe me man, I love the sound of an EL34 quartet cranked so loud we'd start getting noise complaints from Mars. It's not just that they need to be played loud to sound good because some amps, like the 180 watt Diezel Herbert, sound great at low volume. It's that whatever you consider great sounding is significantly subjective.

Many people can't afford or get anywhere near the volume of a $3000, 100w head, so we settle for the little brother which may not be it but sounds really good and no one can tell from a recording. All I'm saying is the whole small tube/low wattage criticism overlooks some of the biggest tones in rock history.

I think most of us can agree that a mini rectifier or Mark V 25 sounds very good. Maybe it doesn't deliver chest thumping low end and knock salt shakers off the tables, but oh man does it sound awesome from the least to the greatest of it's volume limitation.

As for the Badlander 25, it's a killer sound and the only difference is the low end fullness that can only be had with big tubes. That's no big deal to me because I like the way it sounds. Someone suggested just getting a 50w or 100w Badlander, but the question then would be whether they could sound as good at lower volumes. I think they can sound pretty good but that rich goodness only comes with volume. At least with small bottles you can drive them and not harm kids in the next room.

By the way, the Friedman Little Sister is a totally stunning example of a cranked Marshall at much lower volume. If you ever played one, you'd really appreciate what it does as you increase the volume. It's a master quality amp in a small package.

[Rex_Rocker]

I think most of us can agree that a mini rectifier or Mark V 25 sounds very good. Maybe it doesn't deliver chest thumping low end and knock salt shakers off the tables, but oh man does it sound awesome from the least to the greatest of it's volume limitation.

Disagreed.

Much like any Recto, I don't think the Mini sounds particularly good turned way down. And much like I've been saying, turned up to full-band level volumes, it starts sounding thin. It has a window where it sounds fantastic that's below full-band volumes but well above bedroom volume where I feel sounds it's best.

Pretty bad master volume taper too. It goes from 0 to 100 in like 0.00000000001 turn of the knob.

The Mark V I heard is better.

[Top-L]

The problem is there are some common constraints these days. Primarily money and loudness. If you're stuck on 100w amps but don't play them at ear piercing volume then you're kind of preaching a faulty gospel. Believe me man, I love the sound of an EL34 quartet cranked so loud we'd start getting noise complaints from Mars. It's not just that they need to be played loud to sound good because some amps, like the 180 watt Diezel Herbert, sound great at low volume. It's that whatever you consider great sounding is significantly subjective.

Everyone has a reactive load these days. When I'm playing a tube amp, its either low/med volume in room, or cranked through an iso cab with IRs. The 6L6 and EL34 amps I've owned get this sag or "3D" aspect when they are operating in their sweet spot. In fact with a reactive load, its possible to use the amp volume as a tone shaping tool. Every power amp / tube type has its own sound.

This is why I don't like the Synergy preamp models (and similar products). The power amp is as much/more responsible for the sound than the preamp. And its also why I believe spending 1600 for a lunchbox amp is foolish. Most large amps have built in attenuators and are designed to sound good at lower volumes, and most people have a reactive load so when they record they can get big iron sounds. And of course if you are ever playing in a band, you will have enough punch to be heard.

[dr_m]

Disagreed.

Much like any Recto, I don't think the Mini sounds particularly good turned way down. And much like I've been saying, turned up to full-band level volumes, it starts sounding thin. It has a window where it sounds fantastic that's below full-band volumes but well above bedroom volume where I feel sounds it's best.

Pretty bad master volume taper too. It goes from 0 to 100 in like 0.00000000001 turn of the knob.

The Mark V I heard is better.

Well it sounds like you're using reasoning and personal preference rather than sound judgement (pun intended). It sounds more like you're weighing the pros/cons and considering the inadequacies of such amps for you own use. However, when I said "sounds good," By "sound," i meant from the standpoint of an appealing tone. The same you said goes for big amps. Lots of Marshall's, Fenders, etc. don't sound good at low volume, and not necessarily at their loudest either. That's why you have to find a "sweet spotted the 'the tone.' Big amps, like the JCM800, can sound tinny and harsh u til they get loud. Therefore what you said applies across the board and not just small amps. I tell you this: If you hear a decent player soloing on a Mark V 25 or mini rect, I doubt you'd be able to criticize the tone in any meaningful way outside of personal preference.

[Rex_Rocker]

Well it sounds like you're using reasoning and personal preference rather than sound judgement (pun intended). It sounds more like you're weighing the pros/cons and considering the inadequacies of such amps for you own use. However, when I said "sounds good," By "sound," i meant from the standpoint of an appealing tone. The same you said goes for big amps. Lots of Marshall's, Fenders, etc. don't sound good at low volume, and not necessarily at their loudest either. That's why you have to find a "sweet spotted the 'the tone.' Big amps, like the JCM800, can sound tinny and harsh u til they get loud. Therefore what you said applies across the board and not just small amps. I tell you this: If you hear a decent player soloing on a Mark V 25 or mini rect, I doubt you'd be able to criticize the tone in any meaningful way outside of personal preference.

No no, I think you misunderstood me.

I understand and agree that a Mini Rec sounds great when it's at the sweet spot, much like any other amp. There is a reason why it sells like it does. I'm sure it's a big hit for Mesa. Hell, I wouldn't mind owning one for myself for recording. To be completely fair, I do own a 20W 2xEL84 poweramp that I use to jam at home through my Krank 1x12 whenever I get the chance to make some noise, which is honestly, not all that often.

I was addressing the statement "but oh man does it sound awesome from the least to the greatest of it's volume limitation". It doesn't. It doesn't sound good at the least of its volume limitation. So It's not a great bedroom amp. It doesn't sound good at the greatest of its volume limitation. So it's not a great gigging amp. It sounds good somewhere in between, much like any other amp, like you said. So it is a good recording amp.

And yeah, I was judging from my own preference. But is there any other way to judge sound? But to be completely objective, which of us metal players the Mini Rectifier is aimed at like an uber fizzy tone (at low volumes) or a shrill, thin, and farty tone (at high volumes)? I'm sure there is the odball guy that does. But I assure you, most of us don't. It is a Rectifier we're talking about, after all. Not an AC-15 where people actually expect and want that upper-mid focused tone with very little bass.

[Rex_Rocker]

And even it if is a good recording amp for the money, there is still something desirable about a 100W Dual Rec that would make me pick one up over the Mini Recto if money wasn't an object. They're not indistinguishable in a recording. How can they be? The voltages are different. The impedance curve of the transformers is different. The power is different. The way they make the speakers work or not is different. Physically, there is no way these don't sound different.

[Top-L]

Well it sounds like you're using reasoning and personal preference rather than sound judgement (pun intended). It sounds more like you're weighing the pros/cons and considering the inadequacies of such amps for you own use. However, when I said "sounds good," By "sound," i meant from the standpoint of an appealing tone. The same you said goes for big amps. Lots of Marshall's, Fenders, etc. don't sound good at low volume, and not necessarily at their loudest either. That's why you have to find a "sweet spotted the 'the tone.' Big amps, like the JCM800, can sound tinny and harsh u til they get loud. Therefore what you said applies across the board and not just small amps. I tell you this: If you hear a decent player soloing on a Mark V 25 or mini rect, I doubt you'd be able to criticize the tone in any meaningful way outside of personal preference.

Have you considered buying the Badlander 50 head?

The unique thing about the Badlander is it's EL34 power section, which distinguishes it from the DR. I believe its supposed to be a Dual Rec with some EL34 magic.

The 50 watt head has a 20 watt mode, and its a pretty compact footprint. Looks like a great package for about $800 more than the mini Badlander. I believe it will retain more resale value.

[Rex_Rocker]

The unique thing about the Badlander is it's EL34 power section, which distinguishes it from the DR. I believe its supposed to be a Dual Rec with some EL34 magic

You can run both EL34's and 6L6's both in the normal Rectos and the Badlander. I think that's been a feature of all Rectos since the later 2-channel revisions.

I honestly don't understand why they even decided to make the Badlander part of the Rectifier series other than marketing. They sounds NOTHING like a classic Dual Rectifier. Not even if you boost a Recto. A boosted Recto still sounds huge and scooped. Just tighter. I've heard people complain the Badlander is kinda thin, even, which I don't agree with, but it's definitely not ridiculously bassy like a Recto.

Not that that's bad or good, but it doesn't sound like the big, scooped, loose, grindy tone that Rectos are known for. Like, at all.

[Top-L]

You can run both EL34's and 6L6's both in the normal Rectos and the Badlander. I think that's been a feature of all Rectos since the later 2-channel revisions.

I honestly don't understand why they even decided to make the Badlander part of the Rectifier series other than marketing. They sounds NOTHING like a classic Dual Rectifier.

Not that that's bad or good, but it doesn't sound like the big, scooped, loose, grindy tone that Rectos are known for. Like, at all.

They have to keep making new amplifiers to sell. Their marketing department decided this, certainly. How does it compare to a Triple Crown? A Dual Rec? A Mark?

I was infatuated with the Mark V/VII for about a week, but the graphic EQ and the obligatory "V" shape grinds my gears in a certain way. Its a three channel amp, but really a one channel amp with multiple modes because of the shared EQ. And the Dual Rec needs a boost pedal to do anything resembling lead guitar. And the Triple Crown is advertized as "Marshall like", but if I want a Marshall, I'll buy a Marshall.

I don't really understand or have an overwhelming desire to own a Mesa, because I don't "get" them. I think Gibson owning Mesa is a match made in heaven.

[Ascension]

Oh, the Mesa 25W's do sound good! And they record beautifully a medium-ish volumes. But it's just the nature of all 15-25W 2xEL34 amps to sound narrow and compressed when they're at band-level volumes. Mesa, EVH, Orange, or any, for that matter.

Agree with this 100%. Have owned a number of 20 to 30 watt EL 84 amps and love them for what they do However t also understand they will never be a great amp for higher volume live use. Owned several of the old Boogie Subway Rocket amp and a Boogie F 30 short head. I have one Subway Rocket that i have used for many many years for very low volume killer tones with a mic.
They will never have the punch and tightness of a 6L6 amp in a full band situation unmiced.
However can sound absolutely amazing miced in the FOH if your running the right combo.
Example this is my Subway Rocket 1/10 combo at very low stage level miced with a SM 57 and only a Boss DD 7 delay in the loop.

[Rex_Rocker]

And the Dual Rec needs a boost pedal to do anything resembling lead guitar.

Or pretty much anything but ****ing Nu Metal, LOL. But once you throw a boost in front of one, it's glorious. The Boss SD-1 is my secret weapon in front of a Rectifier more than a TS808. It's tighter, leaner, and more aggressive in the attack. Exactly what a Recto needs.

Many people have problems with 3K amps needing 50 dollar pedals to sound good. I don't. I mean, after all, I'm gonna end up capturing it with a 100 dollar mic, LOL.

But then again, I always felt an unboosted EVH 5150III with the resonance and the presence turned up can at least get you in the ballpark of a boosted Rectifier for much less. Not dead on, but not a worse sounding tone either.