Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

I've been doing a lot of A/B-ing with my pedalboard today and noticed something somewhat surprising.

I decided to isolate three of my true-bypass effects to see how they interact, what's the best order, which add noise when on/off, etc. Here are the three pedals in question:

• Analog Man Bi-CompROSSor (compressor)
• Teese RMC3 (wah)
• Analog Man Sun Face NKT-275 (Fuzz Face clone)

Each pedal is connected to the next in line using a 6-inch George L's cable. The cable running from the guitar to the first pedal is a Monster Cable Standard 100 12-foot instrument cable; I use the same thing from the last pedal to the amp. Throughout the entire test only the compressor is turned on.

When I plug into only the compressor (i.e., signal path = guitar > compressor > amp) I get a nice, bright, punchy tone -- just what I want from a compressor. Adding the wah to the chain -- the signal is now guitar > compressor > wah > amp -- does not affect the tone of the compressor at all. This is good, of course. However, as soon as I add the third effect to the chain, the Sun Face, I notice some high-end rolloff in the compressor's tone along with a decrease in punchiness. This is decidedly not good.

Just to ensure it wasn't a problem specific only to the Sun Face, I replaced that with a BSM OR Treble Boost (also true-bypass and also turned off) as the third effect in the chain. Sadly, using the BSM pedal resulted in the same tonal loss as did using the Sun Face.

So my question is this: Are the additional six inches of cable plus whatever distance the signal passes through the third pedal really enough to create signal loss, even if all three pedals are true-bypass?

The great Pete Cornish recommends against using true-bypass pedals (see his article: http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_ag...ue_bypass.html) and suggests the use of pedals with a high input impedance (one that matches the input impedance of the amp) and a low output impedance. If this is the solution, how do I achieve this?

- Keith

[marvar]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

I think that the problem is more that you are compressing a signal, then compressing it again with your fuzz. Most fuzz units have a sort of built in compression as part of the circuit.
Compressors should be use as little as possible- probably the most misunderstood effect out there-unless you are trying to take all the dynamics out of your sound, which is what they are really designed to do. I only kick mine in when doing soft passages, playing a Rickenbacker, or really clean chord work. Come to think of it, I rarely use it- it's built into my Boss ME-50. Anyway, I don't think a compressor should be on all the time.
How is your sound with the comp out of the circuit?
And, BTW- what amp and guitar are you using?

[JLagoon]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

I don't think the 6" cable is enough to create signal loss, especially if the compressor is on. I had the same problem that you are having, but the cause was a DOD flanger pedal that does not have a true bypass.

Are the pedals AC powered? Low battery perhaps?

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

I think that the problem is more that you are compressing a signal, then compressing it again with your fuzz. Most fuzz units have a sort of built in compression as part of the circuit.
Compressors should be use as little as possible- probably the most misunderstood effect out there-unless you are trying to take all the dynamics out of your sound, which is what they are really designed to do. I only kick mine in when doing soft passages, playing a Rickenbacker, or really clean chord work. Come to think of it, I rarely use it- it's built into my Boss ME-50. Anyway, I don't think a compressor should be on all the time.
How is your sound with the comp out of the circuit?

But the fuzz box is true-bypass and turned OFF; there shouldn't be any compression going on whatsoever. Also, I noticed the same effect when I replaced the fuzz box with another unit, a true-bypass treble booster (also turned OFF).

I love the sound of the compressor and like to have it on almost all the time when I'm playing clean; that's how I like it. When I'm playing overdriven or distorted stuff I won't use the compressor as much (if at all) but I'm not willing to give it up for my clean tones.

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

I don't think the 6" cable is enough to create signal loss, especially if the compressor is on. I had the same problem that you are having, but the cause was a DOD flanger pedal that does not have a true bypass.

Are the pedals AC powered? Low battery perhaps?

Ah, that's one thing I forgot to mention: I use a Voodoo Labs Pedal Power 2 to power my pedals.

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Well I am not going to be nice about true bypass this time, it is frankly moronic!
A guitarsignal is weak!!
Anything passive in the signal pathway is going to weakend it even further, no magic true bypass can do anything about it!!
Quite a few of these things have a 1mega resistor in signal path to prevent the unavoidable pop in a mechanical switch, it also takes away a tiny bit of signal, and the pedals do add extra resistance and let nobody fool you into beliving anything else!!
This has nothing to do with me working at a company that uses buffers only!
It does not even require thinking, just be logical about it!
And the impedance on most of those things are funny too, low impedance inputs takes away signal, add any kind of than 3 meters of cable and it will take away more signal.
Look at Gilmoures board being made at the Cornish site...see anything tb??
No nothing, see Bradshaw switchers.....does tb rule there?? No!
Why?
Because it is quite impractical and you will end up with a weakend signal very easily!

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Well I am not going to be nice about true bypass this time, it is frankly moronic!
A guitarsignal is weak!!
Anything passive in the signal pathway is going to weakend it even further, no magic true bypass can do anything about it!!
Quite a few of these things have a 1mega resistor in signal path to prevent the unavoidable pop in a mechanical switch, it also takes away a tiny bit of signal, and the pedals do add extra resistance and let nobody fool you into beliving anything else!!
This has nothing to do with me working at a company that uses buffers only!
It does not even require thinking, just be logical about it!
And the impedance on most of those things are funny too, low impedance inputs takes away signal, add any kind of than 3 meters of cable and it will take away more signal.
Look at Gilmoures board being made at the Cornish site...see anything tb??
No nothing, see Bradshaw switchers.....does tb rule there?? No!
Why?
Because it is quite impractical and you will end up with a weakend signal very easily!

Exactly. So what do I do about my pedals? Is there something I can add to provide this high impedance?

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Did you check that George L cable??
They are notorious unreliable, never had one that lasted very long.
Anyways that fuzz may just want to be the first link in the chain, just like the original one.

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Did you check that George L cable??
They are notorious unreliable, never had one that lasted very long.
Anyways that fuzz may just want to be the first link in the chain, just like the original one.

I posted this on The Gear Page as well and the bad GL cable was exactly what someone else had suggested checking. Good point. I'll do that tonight and let you know what I find.

As for the order of the pedals, I didn't make clear and should've stated that I'm putting the pedals in this order (from guitar to amp): fuzz > compressor > wah.

- Keith

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Hmm then stick the comp in first then
See what that will give you.

[Kelsey]

Re: Compressor losing punch -- Impedance matching?

Throwing one good buffered pedal into the chain may help, as would a good clean boost pedal like the RGW Bad Bob or ZVEX SHO. Lots of folks like to get their Boss TU-2 out of the loop, but it doesn't seem to detract from the bypassed tone (to my ears at least) and the buffered output may be helpful in many cases (like yours). I know that the excellent buffered output of my old Visual Sounds Rt. 66 actually improved my bypassed tone when using some of my old non-true-bypass pedals (e.g., EH Memory Man, DOD 250).