old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

[Davey]

man, whats with me today ..LOL

anyway. seeing how vintage gear goes sky high with prices and many of the reissue equipment isnt really a true 100% replica makes me think.

cant companies make the exact same amp? or dont they want to cos they'd ruin the gear value of the original?

with todays technology you could recreate a ****load of amps (kind of like the line6 stuff) but sill have their original voice/character. i dont see why they could not make something like this.

example from the other thread (fender devillevs the 65 reissue) so, the 65 reissue hasnt got the same type of circuitry? why not.. cant you make the same thing again or what?

also.. what limits you from building your own replica amp if you got the right schematics?

[Mkf411]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

IMO gear manufacturing companies probably wouldn't care much about devaluing their vintage stuff because they don't make money off them. Most seem to be in the business of selling new gear by trading off their past reputation.

One factor, that hinders exact replicas is how much manufacturing has changed. Back in the 50's and 60's much work was still done by hand, such as wiring. Now it's often automated with PC boards replacing point to point wiring. Alot of people think this is not good. Although, some of the PC boards have gotten quite good. Also tubes are scarcer. At the time the classic amps were made, the tubes they put in were easy to get. Now they cost an arm and leg.

If you want hand wiring and nice tubes, you probably have to go with a boutique amp maker. Most big manufacturers aren't really geared towards the point to point wiring Boutique end of the maket. Unless you want to pay a premium for the new Marshalls that are point to point. Making your own seems to requires knowledge and alot of effort. So you can go to a Boutique maker, some of which doesn't hold it's resale value. Or go with the best the big guys offer. At least most of their stuff holds it's value.

Or learn to play so well that you sound good on anything. :fing25:

[matt99camero]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

My opinion would be that back then labor was cheaper so having something hand wired was still cost efficient. Today labor is more expensive and they would have to charge way more today than they did back then for the same amp and it might not be cost efficient. IMO no machine can replace a good set of skilled hands, but machines create faster output at a cheaper cost. I think today it's not about the love of putting out something great or taking a chance on something new, it's all a money game. I bet there have been so many great ideas by guitar and amp builders that have gotten shot down by the financial people not wanting to take a chance on it. I'd love to see the "original" amps put back into production but I just don't think it will ever happen.That's just my take on it.

[Curly]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

there are plenty of examples of fairly accurate reproductions

[some_dude]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

cant companies make the exact same amp?

Where are they going to find a company who's interested in making vintage resistors and caps (amoung other parts) in limited quantities for a reasonable price?

It's been enough of a chore to get companies making decent tubes again, and almost every major guitar amp uses the same basic tube types.

[Davey]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

i see where you're goin with this.. gotcha =)

but what about digitalisation? i got the guitar port but the amps as good as they are are just pretty much shadows of the originals. i think it's pretty hard to capture the sound and character while still leaving it customisable

[Bludave]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

[QUOTE=Davey]man, whats with me today ..LOL

anyway. seeing how vintage gear goes sky high with prices and many of the reissue equipment isnt really a true 100% replica makes me think.

cant companies make the exact same amp? or dont they want to cos they'd ruin the gear value of the original?

with todays technology you could recreate a ****load of amps (kind of like the line6 stuff) but sill have their original voice/character. i dont see why they could not make something like this.

example from the other thread (fender devillevs the 65 reissue) so, the 65 reissue hasnt got the same type of circuitry? why not.. cant you make the same thing again or what?


It's not just a matter of matching the shematics. It really has a lot to do with the componants. Many of the Caps, resistors, and even wire is simply not available any more. It is because of this that not all Marshall Plexis are created equal. Some Plexis simply sound better than others using the exact same wiring schematics. Marshall as well as every other manufacturer has to buy the raw componants used in building the Amps. When a particular componant is no longer available it is replaced with something of equal quality when available, but this cannot always be done so a different componant may need to be used. This causes some variables in tone. Many of todays Amp builders are building tube sockets on PC boards where the older amps were all hand wired to the chasis. Some people will argue that wired to the Chasis will sound better, but at the same time it limits the number of units that can be made and therfore increases the price. IMO Hand wired amps do not sound better because of this, but I do believe they are made better, and are less likley to break down over time.

[aleclee]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

Many of the Caps, resistors, and even wire is simply not available any more. It is because of this that not all Marshall Plexis are created equal. Some Plexis simply sound better than others using the exact same wiring schematics.

On top of this, the relatively loose tolerances in vintage component values contributed quite a bit to the variance in tone from amp to amp. That could make one amp create tone to die for while the next one off the line was ordinary.

As for digital modeling, the approximations are getting better but it's like computer animation: it's remarkably realistic but sometimes it doesn't seem quite natural. A lot of the properties of tubes that make them sound "interesting" is really, really complex from a mathematical standpoint and the use of approximations makes the results more approximate, too. I'm not necessarily trashing the concept of modeling but, given the state of the art, there remain some technical issues that keep the technology from completely replacing tubes at this time.

[Mkf411]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

I have heard people say that where modelling gets it wrong is in trying to recreate classic sounds "exactly" rather than focusing on making digital technology sound good.

I wonder amp companies could just make a good digital amp that wasn't trying to be everything in a box. Focus on a two or three channel amp with effects that sound good on it's own. I'm not sure this is possible because everything will probably be benchmarked by the classic tube amps.

[Gearjoneser]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

A big issue is the number of guitar related consumers now, as compared to 1955-65.
Fender and Marshall had a staff of assemblymen/women who handwired chassis in an assembly line, producing 50-150 amps per month. Nowadays, with 5 guitar players on every block, a company like Fender or Marshall has to produce over 600 amps per month (estimation). To fill that demand, the circuit boards are done on a soldering machine, most likely outsourced to another electronic company. Then, minimum wage workers screw the boards inside the chassis, put nuts on all the pots, and zip it together in a matter of minutes. I took a tour of the Matchless factory one day, and found out they only produce around 40 amps per month, and they have a crew of about 8 guys doing some serious manual labor with soldering irons. I don't envy their daily routine! It's gotta be murder on your back, neck, shoulders, and eyes.

[Davey]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

thanks for the input guys =)

and yer right GJ. the product demand has jumped immensly

[Thames]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

I'm also wondering why manufacturers keep reissuing classics while changing almost all the original schematics... MXR/Dunlop is really good at this.

[Luke Duke]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

I agree with almost all of the stuff printed here. The P2P wiring is something special. The first time I plugged into my Dr. Z I realized that. Also I remember reading that the original Marshalls varied so much because if they ran out of (example) a .25uF cap they'd replace it with the next closest value they had. .27, .3, .4!

But please let's not romanticize and say that the great builders of yore weren't interested in profit. Jennings organ company (later Vox) started making amps to increase prophets. Jim Marshall did design his amp off an incredibly well made fender (bass amp!! )that worked well with guitar but being he lived across the pond he had to do a lot of substitutions thus the marshall sound was born. He also incorporated the closed back cabs due to projection issues with open back cabs.

Ingenious

But the increasing of the product line is always profit driven.

But I've come to wonder why guitarists use the SAME gear. We all CAN'T plug into a JCM 800 and sound like Zak Wylde, or Kerry King, but we insist on using the SAME gear as our heroes even though it might not be best for us. We as guitarists are so conservative and opposed to change it's hilarious to compare us with our bass playing counterparts. Maybe the Z taught me to open my mind.

Food for thought

Luke

[Davey]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

oh well, i'm past that.. i dont buy stuff just because one of my guitar heroes plays it, but because it sounds good to me and fits what i play, if the hero is playing it good, but thats not the reason i bought it

[tiefightertk069]

Re: old amps, reissues, modern technology (some thoughts)

But I've come to wonder why guitarists use the SAME gear. We all CAN'T plug into a JCM 800 and sound like Zak Wylde, or Kerry King, but we insist on using the SAME gear as our heroes even though it might not be best for us. We as guitarists are so conservative and opposed to change it's hilarious to compare us with our bass playing counterparts. Maybe the Z taught me to open my mind.

Food for thought

Luke

Plus one brutha...