My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

To further expand on what I have learned about spray can nitro. No more than three coats a day and let the last coat dry to the touch before the next pass. Let it cure over night before the next three.

The darker the color the more it will show imperfections from below, so with black you need to get the surface as perfect as you can before applying the color coats. If you get an acceptable color coat with one or two passes then don't add more. The more you do, the more can go wrong, and you want to keep it thin overall.

Your going to want to wet sand the clear coat starting with 600 to get a professional grade shiny finish, so you want 6 passes of clear- so you don't sand through. Three the first day and let it cure over night. Then three the next day and let it cure over night before you start wet sanding. Use McGuire's ultimate compound for the final polish. Wait two months before applying a synthetic automotive wax like Ice. The reason I apply and automotive wax is because it will have effective UV protection in it to slow down the yellowing of nitro.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Email Reranch...they will get back to you quickly with the correct answer...trust them only...

No. There are plenty of capable quality guitar repair/refinishers on this forum.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

For the seal coat, lacquer sanding sealer is better than clear lacquer...it has higher solids content and builds better than clear. But if your guitar currently has an oil finish, shellac id your best bet. Shellac acts like a bonding agent between the previous finish and the new finish.

Don't get paranoid, lacquer is very forgiving and very easy to work with. Make a mistake, get runs, too thick in spots, orange peel finish...don't worry just sand it smooth and add more lacquer.

ItsaBass and Ayrton have given solid advice.

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Thanks again- I'm now thinking about whether I need to wait for winter to do this or find a cool place to spray. That's my excuse for the delay anyway.

As for Shellac, Ayrton appears to have used (or linked to) Zinsser. Is there any brand I should avoid? Feel like I'm going to go that route.

One more question: I seem to notice people not masking the neck pocket when they do this. My neck pocket is very tight already- should I mask?

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I have used Zinsser shellac for this exact purpose before with no problems. Shellac is an organic substance so brand shouldn't matter.

You don't need to wait until winter, just shoot early in the morning.

[treyhaislip]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Cool project, please keep us posted!

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I owe those who offered their good advice an update during my 'holding pattern' period:

I ordered lacquer primer and sand/sealer from ReRanch along with his 3M buffing polish (but I have Meguiars on-hand anyway in case I want to switch it up.) I admit I only did not initially order those things for two reasons - 1. They were not available in the Reranch store at the time (sold out?) and I didn't want to substitute anything that is not nitro lacquer (take the debate to another thread, but only lacquer is going on this guitar) 2. There wasn't any mention made from my sources that G&L originally used primer, and I'm trying to stay somewhat true to what was done from the factory.

That said - the point was made that primer is probably a good idea so now I'm doing it, likely instead of the clear that G&L apparently used after the sealer. It's around 70 degs. when I wake up at 5:00 AM so once I get the additional materials I'll finally start spraying. I'm still aiming to use no more than one can of black and no more than one can of clear for a 'thin skin' but may reconsider along the way. I really don't mind much if it is susceptible to chips/wear; I plan on sort of babying it once it's done (and if it does wear, the neck is already worn to match it.)

My initial source of '80s G&L finishing info also implied no sand & sealer or final clear over non-transparent colors was used, but it seems like I have updated/more accurate information which does not corroborate that if anyone cares to read through a history lesson:

The following was originally posted by Fred Finisher June 25-29, 2012.
He was an employee in the finishing department from 1978 (CLF Research/Music Man/G&L) until Dec. 1985.

Today I will touch on the topic of finishing because this seems to be more interesting to most enthusiasts.

There have been questions as to how the finishes were applied and what was used that I would like to touch on.
For starters, let's talk about prep. Sanding is the most thankless job in the shop no matter what field you're in.
A poor sanding job will result in a poor finish and feel. A body or neck is shaped and finish sanded prior to coming
into the finish department. Depending on the species of wood, the next step is to final sand and seal or apply a paste
wood filler ( colored for Mahogany, Natural for Ash ). The filler was applied by brush allowed to dry then wiped off
across the grain with burlap in order to leave as much as possible in the pores of the wood. If this is not done, the
finish will continue to shrink into the grain of the wood and will look like an amateur did it. Once the filler is lightly
sanded the base coats can be applied after a sanding sealer is applied and scuff sanded.This is something that has
to be done very lightly at first or there will be air bubbles and other problems to deal with. Four coats of clear was
applied to create a base coat prior to any color being applied. This might come as a surprise to some but the colors
were applied over the base coats. They were not wipe on stains or sprayed directly on the wood. The base coats
until around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer. There were no polyester or polyurethane base coats prior to
that time. After four coats were applied and dry, they had to be smooth sanded before the color ( or in the case of
natural ) and top coats could be applied. I will continue this process breakdown throughout the day. I hope you will
stay tuned.
Fred

Footnote: When I say no polys were used prior to 1985 I mean at G&L. The very first CLF instruments did have
polyester base coats which were discontinued because of check cracking.

To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.
Around '85 we began to shoot a two part polyurethane for base coats only. Bodies that were made of Ash or Mahogany
were filled with a paste wood filler. This was a time consuming process but necessary to get the smooth finish necessary
for these guitars to look right. The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the
tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production
were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this
change. The bodies came into the finish department presanded by the woodshop but not completely sanded. The final
sanding took place in finishing and then they were either filled or sealed right away. A lacquer sanding sealer was used
for this. This was then scuff sanded before four coats of clear lacquer was applied as a base coat. Filled bodies had to be
coated carefully or they would get air bubbles that were hard to remedy. Once the base coats were applied, they would
need to be scuff sanded to remove the orange peel and grain that might show through.

After the sanding was complete, the color coats were done. If a body was to remain natural, it of course was merely
sprayed with clear lacquer. If it was to be colored the process could be as simple as spraying on a solid color such
as black. If it was to be a sunburst for example, you would begin with the yellow base coat over the entire body, followed
by the cherry red perimeter being careful not to get it too dark or light, then the last step would be to apply the dark brown
perimeter burst. The outside edge needed to be opaque but the face and back of the instrument had to have a certain see
through quality to it in order for it not to look like it was "masked off". There were variances in these finishes but most were
pretty consistent. The see through blues and reds were especially touchy because they could come out blotchy or too dark.
After the colors were applied, six coats of clear nitro was sprayed on. Sometime early on we began to make it a bit easier for
the polishing department by stopping before the last coat and sanding the lacquer smooth before spraying on the last coat.
This made it easier for them to remove the orange peel during the wet sanding process. Once the final coat was applied the
bodies were allowed to dry for two weeks. This made it possible to wet sand and polish the bodies to a high gloss without
worrying about the lacquer shrinking prematurely. The necks were sprayed with a total of six coats also but they were buffed
out much sooner because there was less lacquer to dry. Once we began to spray colors on headstocks, there were some
changes on how we got them complete. Although this looked better, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the
extra effort needed to complete them. We had a base plus bonus per piece system in place so any changes caused a lot of
heartburn with those of us who had to do the extra work.

After the bodies and necks were dry enough, they were wet sanded to a 600 grit paper using a soap and water solution. This
process took some finesse because a little too much water and the cavities and holes would swell. The buffing was done by
machine which required steady hands and focus or you stood a chance of having a high speed neck or body crack you in the
ribs or like one of the guys even worse, right between the eyes. Once the edges were polished, the top and back were polished
by a hand held buffer similar to what you see used for detailing cars. These finishes were scrutinized for defects because
nobody wanted any sub par instruments leaving the factory.

I hope this sheds a little light on what it takes to make a guitar look as good as it does when it leaves the factory.

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

One thing about me - I HATE taking things apart; but not as much as a hate *having* them apart. Trust me; pulling this thing to pieces is the most difficult/procrastination-incurring part of this for me, so I anticipate updates should be more regular (even if I really want to take my time and get this right when it comes to actually laying on finish.

Again if you see me about to do something stupid, please stop me

How dumb is it that I want to preserve this patch of the original finish below the neck plate?



Trivia - The F100 is the only guitar G&L made with both string-through design and the Saddle-lock bridge. The saddles are also totally unique. Visible are the bridge boss, and the ground wire to the copper shield plate (now removed for the refin.)



This is an '83 per the factory log-book...



Scribbling



Some awesome previous owner cut and spliced the pickup wires, so I un-spliced them at the same point; all of ~7.4k in both humbuckers (3.7 per coil,) but they're hot!



Birds nest I'm glad to not need to deal with; splices again not mine. Not original wiring by some percentage



Cavity stuffed like an embalmed corpse; don't care about overspray in it, but figured might as well seal it off a bit. Ferrules came out pretty easy, everything is cataloged and packed away for re-assembly. Wadded up paper in the ferrule holes and stuffed toothpicks in the pickup holes (they're metal inserts/threaded.)

Next stop is a scuff of the body w/ 3M pad & light sanding, and let's see how the nitro sand/sealer from ReRanch goes on...

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I owe those who offered their good advice an update during my 'holding pattern' period:

I ordered lacquer primer and sand/sealer from ReRanch along with his 3M buffing polish (but I have Meguiars on-hand anyway in case I want to switch it up.) I admit I only did not initially order those things for two reasons - 1. They were not available in the Reranch store at the time (sold out?) and I didn't want to substitute anything that is not nitro lacquer (take the debate to another thread, but only lacquer is going on this guitar) 2. There wasn't any mention made from my sources that G&L originally used primer, and I'm trying to stay somewhat true to what was done from the factory.

That said - the point was made that primer is probably a good idea so now I'm doing it, likely instead of the clear that G&L apparently used after the sealer. It's around 70 degs. when I wake up at 5:00 AM so once I get the additional materials I'll finally start spraying. I'm still aiming to use no more than one can of black and no more than one can of clear for a 'thin skin' but may reconsider along the way. I really don't mind much if it is susceptible to chips/wear; I plan on sort of babying it once it's done (and if it does wear, the neck is already worn to match it.)

My initial source of '80s G&L finishing info also implied no sand & sealer or final clear over non-transparent colors was used, but it seems like I have updated/more accurate information which does not corroborate that if anyone cares to read through a history lesson:

That quote from the G&L worker was a great read -for me at least. Very informative. Six clears seems like a lot but most of it gets wet sanded and buffed off. It seems like an excessive amount of prep work, but they were just making sure that the surface was level and would stay level before it got the color coat.

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

grain filler?

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

grain filler?

Using Reranch oil based grain filler and the body sure needs it. First applying a layer of reranch Sand & Seal, then another layer of Sand & Seal above the filler prior to subsequent coats.

[ItsaBass]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

It's good to finally see it apart.


A couple things:


1. Definitely silly to try to leave that bit of original finish there. Just take it off IMO.


2. I'm surprised at how raggedy the cavities look. I would try cleaning those up nicely before spraying anything.


3. I would not mask the control cavity. There might be an argument to be made that you should go ahead and mask the neck pocket (though I usually do not), but there isn't much reason to mask the control cavity or pickup routs IMO.

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Pickup cavities seem to be full of sawdust and random dirt from years of playing. Agreed they'll need to be emptied out in case it shifts and spoils the wet paint. I mostly just stuffed & masked over the control cavity to avoid pulling the copper shield out.

The neck pocket fit is already very tight, so hoping to avoid any fit issues by masking it off.

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Grain filler has always caused me to go back for a re dos....am trying something the furniture guys are raving about....this time trying Aqua Coat...first pass seems to be much easier to apply and get worked into the grain...never know until the paint hits the wood...

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I wish someone made a YouTube tutorial on using the reranch stuff specifically. Hard to even find pics of it going on.