Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

[Ktulu]

Hi,
On a 1992 Sheraton II.
You'd believe on these hollows & semi-hollows there's very few people who'd try to modify theirs, especially at the pots part, cause it's like working as a damn dentist (with or without the mirror, haha).
But here's some curious bothersome shiznit I ran into when I plugged in my "new" 1992 Sheraton II:
* When toggle's in the middle position and I turn the BRIDGE volume down, it actually boosts the volume like if it were in series.
* But when the toggle is on the bridge pickup, then turning the volume down works just fine, like, turning it down, even to 0.
* What's more curious: sound coming out only on the bridge pickup is a little weaker than the one on the neck.
What happened here? Many thanks ahead!
P.S.: Both tone pots work as they should.

[blueman335]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

Bridge pickups can often have less volume, as there's less string energy in that location, which also means less low end and mids, and less sustain. That's why bridge pickups are usually wound hotter, to boost output a little to compensate ('as in a calibrated set). Trying raising yours.

F hole guitars aren't hard to replace pickups on or rewire. With no prior electrical or soldering experience, and no discernible handyman skills, my first rewiring was putting 2 push-pull pots in a Hamer Echotone 335. Not a big deal. I don't know why I hear grown men whining about this. After doing this a umber of times on F holes over the decades, here's how to make it painless:

- Set the guitar on a table or bench with an old towel under it. Set another old towel on top, to lay the parts on as you pull them out. You'll need good lighting and a fan for the solder fumes.

- Loosen the nuts on the pot stems and toggle, and pull them out them the F hole, and lay them on the towel. I use T-net drivers from Stew Mac, as they won't scratch the finish like pliers will (they sell a set of 3). Nut drivers are a good idea for solid bodies too.

- Do your soldering and test everything thru an amp before putting the parts back inside. I like to give an extra inch or two of wire between parts when possible, so that nothing gets pulled tight on re-entry.

- I use a stiff plastic coated wire wrapped around the pot stem to gently pull the neck tone put inside, running the wire from the outside of the pot hole and thru the body up to the F hole. Some guys use aquarium tubing on the pot stem. While holding the stem with a 6" forceps, I put the washer and nut on the stem and hand tighten.

- For the other 3 pots, I can lift them from underneath thru the F hole with the forceps and get each into place.

- Before the tighten the nuts & put the knobs back on, I test thru an amp again, in case anything got pulled or shorted out going back in.

- Then I tighten and put the knobs on and test a final (3rd) time time thru an amp. It sounds like a lot of testing, but if you completely reassemble an F hole and then find it's not working, you'll see the wisdom in that.


No need for mirrors, fear, or cursing. I know a handyman & guitarist that tried to rewire his own Hamer Echotone, using string instead of a stiff wire or aquarium tubing. He said it took him an hour to get the pots back in! Using wire I can get every in and tightened in 5 to 10 minutes tops.

[Ktulu]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

Thanks for the material!
But I was also asking what is actually going on. Why is the general volume actually increasing (middle position), when I turn off the bridge volume? That's what bothers me so much.

[AlexR]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

Its an odd phenomenon.......if the guitar was wired OOP, then what you suggest would happen. But it would be quite nasally in that middle position, and you'd probably be complaining that the middle was a lot quieter than the single pickups alone.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

This sounds like it could be normal, just being experienced by someone who might not know what normal is on a typical 2 pickup, 2V/2T Gibson setup.

When you are in the middle position, it is both pickups in parallel, which is the thinnest sounding tone you can get from the guitar. Turning one pickup down when you are in the middle position does indeed result in a fattening of the tone, as one pickup soon overwhelms the other, and you are closer to the same point as if you had just that pickup on. It's considered an annoyance by many. It's also considered a tool by many, and one of the main reasons so many people live in the middle position, simply turning their volume knobs to change tones.

It is normal for a bridge pickup to be significantly thinner, unless you have one pickup that is specifically balanced to the other by design...or unless you have significantly adjusted the pickup heights (bridge higher and neck lower).

Combine the two characteristics, and you get a big boost in output when you turn down the already weaker bridge pickup, while in the middle switch position.

So, it sounds normal to me. What you describe is how the typical Gibson setup works, love it or hate it.

[Ktulu]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

(I think I'm gonna buy a tooth mirror...)

I also began to think of it as a tool these days, ItsaBass. However... Now that I've sort of understood what goes on in there, I'm starting to find it annoying that the bridge pup is so thin.
And I know that can be adjusted. And I will. I mean, why have it lower sounding than the other one? Who does that? They don't sound the same, and it surely is because strings vibrate differently in that spot. I'm sure everybody knows that. Then why not benefit of the full sound it has, and move it a little closer to the strings? In the end it's all in the picking style, if you want a mellower sound.
Right. But I've also read about and saw a 2V/2T diagram, that gives one the option of wiring independent volumes. Which would in fact allow for turning one volume down, and benefitting from the other one. Is that also wired in parallel in that case? Meaning it will still be thinner than a single pickup selected?
And hey! Actually isn't my case that specific one? Because I have a '99 ES that, when in middle position, goes all off if just one pickup is off.
ItsaBass, thanks a lot man!

[ItsaBass]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

(I think I'm gonna buy a tooth mirror...)

I also began to think of it as a tool these days, ItsaBass. However... Now that I've sort of understood what goes on in there, I'm starting to find it annoying that the bridge pup is so thin.
And I know that can be adjusted. And I will. I mean, why have it lower sounding than the other one? Who does that? They don't sound the same, and it surely is because strings vibrate differently in that spot. I'm sure everybody knows that. Then why not benefit of the full sound it has, and move it a little closer to the strings? In the end it's all in the picking style, if you want a mellower sound.
Right. But I've also read about and saw a 2V/2T diagram, that gives one the option of wiring independent volumes. Which would in fact allow for turning one volume down, and benefitting from the other one. Is that also wired in parallel in that case? Meaning it will still be thinner than a single pickup selected?
And hey! Actually isn't my case that specific one? Because I have a '99 ES that, when in middle position, goes all off if just one pickup is off.
ItsaBass, thanks a lot man!

You're welcome.

All old guitars used to be that way. Balanced sets (overwound bridge pickups and/or underwound neck pickups) came about as a normal thing DECADES after electric guitars became popular. You just adjust your pickups around it by changing the heights and pole pieces. All the great early decades of electric guitar music were recorded with pickups that were not deliberately balanced by the makers; you can make great music that way, trust me.

Get your bridge pickup to where you like the tone and volume. Then lower your neck till they have a balance that you like. Then adjust the pole pieces to get the string to string balance you like. Additional over all height adjustments might have to be made again after that.

[blueman335]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

I don't know what pickups Epi was using in the early 1990's, but in the late 1990's they had some of the lowest quality pickups used on electric guitars (affectionately known on this site as 'mudbuckers'). If yours has the cheap ones, I highly recommend upgrading to good quality PAF's, and my rewiring advice would come in handy.

[ArtieToo]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

* When toggle's in the middle position and I turn the BRIDGE volume down, it actually boosts the volume like if it were in series.

This is actually normal for the "50's" wiring. That is, when the pickups hot wire is connected to the wiper of the pot. Basically, your neck pickup "sees" your bridge pup as the DCR of the bridge, in parallel with, the resistance of the pot. Lets say the bridge is 8k. The total resistance will be less than 8k. To be exact, with a 500k pot, it would be about 7.8k. As you turn the volume pot down, you remove the 8k and the resistance rises to the value of the pot, or 500k. Much less load on the neck pup.

I've oversimplified this a bit, but you get the picture. (I hope.)

[Darg1911]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

If the guitars volume pots were wired dependently ... with toggle in the middle position, when you roll either volume pot all the way off, you would kill output from both pickups. But if you roll either volume down slightly, the "opposite" pickup quickly dominates.
Sounds like your guitars volumes are wired as dependent. To know for sure, switch the toggle to the middle position and turn either one of the volumes all the way down. If it silences the output, they are wired dependently.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

I wire all of my guitar builds with 50s independent wiring to avoid that "problem". I never could learn to get along with dependent wiring.

[blueman335]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

I wire all of my guitar builds with 50s independent wiring to avoid that "problem". I never could learn to get along with dependent wiring.

Agree on independent volume controls, it gives many more tones to choose from. Combine that with spin-a-split on a neck humbucker & the Kinman treble bleed on the bridge, and you'll vastly increase you tone options. Of the 3 mods, two are free (using existing parts) and the third costs about a dollar. Makes coil split pale in comparison.

I much prefer modern wiring for the punch & warmth.

[Mincer]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

Agree on independent volume controls, it gives many more tones to choose from. Combine that with spin-a-split on a neck humbucker & the Kinman treble bleed on the bridge, and you'll vastly increase you tone options. Of the 3 mods, two are free (using existing parts) and the third costs about a dollar. Makes coil split pale in comparison.

I much prefer modern wiring for the punch & warmth.

I am a modern wiring fan, too. I hate having the volumes independent, and I hate manipulating 2 knobs (or more) to get to a sound I want.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Epiphone Sheraton II wiring curiosity - bridge volume acting wrong

Simply leaving one pot out of the circuit, and wiring for V/T/T is an easy and effective solution. Personally, I make the useless pot into a passive bass cut pot (master, but could be just the neck pickup if that's preferable).

I am never a fan of multiple volume controls on the same guitar. What I want is a master volume (or even just an on/off switch instead), and a tone control for each pickup.