PRS/Scale question

S

SJ318

New member
Hello,
I have Fender, and Gibson guitars. Fenders' scale feels comfortable to me when I bend strings. Feels a little stiffer, but not enough to bother me.
Gibsons, of course, bend like butter. Oddly, when I play a PRS, using the same gauge strings, feels much stiffer to bend, which doesn't make sense, as I was told that the scale length of a PRS is between a Gibson and a Stratocaster.
Any idea why this might be? The necks are all similar as I shape them to my specs, including shape, thickness, radius, fret finishing and crowning.
Thanks.
Steve
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

For me, Gibson’s feel stiffer to bend than my Fenders. I always thought it was related to either the break angle of the string over the bridge and nut, or maybe difference in how the strings are anchored? Don’t really know why. Just know I have to play a little different on different guitars. I can’t remember if I was using the exact same gauge or compensating at the time I formed that impression, however. I might have had slightly different gauges on them. I think I only stocked one particular set of strings at the time. Tension when bending is not something I think about much.

If you are using the same gauge of string, I would expect the same pitch tuning with a shorter length to feel more slack and bend easier.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

beaubrummels,
Yeah, same gauge. The PRS has a one piece stop tail bridge, with adj. saddles. Think that would make a difference?
Steve
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Possibly. I have noticed that the length of string past the bridge and nut affects how loose the strings feel. For example, on my Casino and Gretschs that have a trapeze or Bigsby well past the bridge, the strings feel looser and articulate. Same thing with my left-hand Strat strung right handed, the extra length on the bass side makes the lower strings feel looser.

The only stop tails I have are melody makers and I haven’t tried leads or bending on them, but the stop tail not having any length of string after the saddles could tighten up the feel of the strings. Possibly part of why stop tail juniors and melody makers make excellent punk/rock rhythm guitars.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Stiffer is not only a function of scale length, but setup. This includes fret size, any string break angles, nut slot heights, relief etc etc. Also the geometry of the guitar can come into it......weight balance, neck angle, fretboard radius and neck back profile.

I have numerous scratch builds, and its incredible how each of them feels different - some with the options most likely to make for stiff action feel slinky and vise-versa.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

The 25 scale is by far my favorite to play. I own Carvin/Kiesels and PRS guitars with it.
It has a slightly darker tone and softer feel that the 25.5 Fender normal scale. It is snappier and slightly stiffer than the Gibson 24.75 scale but is much easier to play high up the neck with a 24 fret guitar. While there are slight difference in string tension going from a Gibson or Fender scale guitar to a Carvin but it's really not that dramatic if they are set up right. I personally prefer the tone and harmonics of the 25 scale and currently own guitars with all 3 scale lengths.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

AlexR said:
Stiffer is not only a function of scale length, but setup. This includes fret size, any string break angles, nut slot heights, relief etc etc. Also the geometry of the guitar can come into it......weight balance, neck angle, fretboard radius and neck back profile.

I have numerous scratch builds, and its incredible how each of them feels different - some with the options most likely to make for stiff action feel slinky and vise-versa.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on here!
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Thanks everyone,
What you all said makes sense. Appreciate the feedback!
Steve
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

A lot of it depends on what type of bridge you have and how much contact the strings are making with the bridge saddles. If the strings have a lot of contact with the bridge "Saddle" like on a PRS stoptail where they are trapped in a groove across the entire top, or a Les Paul bridge where you have the tailpiece cranked down at a steep angle behind the bridge forcing the string to contact more metal, it will feel stiffer than a bridge where the string has much less contact and is therefore more free to move side to side. Yes, there is side to side movement of the string in the saddle slot when you bend a string if you think about it. Raising the Les Paul tailpiece puts less string in contact with the saddle, and creates a slinkier feel. Try it and see.
Take non-locking tremolo saddles for instance. Vintage strat style bent steel saddles have no set groove in them for the string so the string and the saddle can move slightly side to side when you bend. If you compare that to a more modern square machined strat saddle, the modern one holds the string in a fixed groove and the saddles have very square sides which allow less movement, so the string will feel stiffer. More stiff than that will be a bridge that has square saddles and side-boundries which compress the saddles together like on PRS trems. That allows very little to no movement side to side and will feel stiffer. All of this is, of course, considering that the scale length and string gauge/brand are the same. I have done a lot of experimenting around over the years, and this holds true from what I've seen.
 
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Re: PRS/Scale question

Other than string type and gauge, the only factors that affects the feel/stiffness when bending is the total string length and the tension. The saddle slot shape makes no difference at all unless it actually binds the string, in which case it is effectively shortening the total string length.

Look at an extreme example: If you had a string that was anchored solid at both ends but was only 3 inches long, how easy would it be to bend the string? Nearly impossible unless you were Superman. If that same exact type of string at the same tension was 100 yards long, a baby could easily bend it a foot with his pinky finger. The complication come from bringing the string up to the same pitch. The longer length string requires more tension to bring it to the same pitch as the shorter string, thus making it stiffer.

I think this has been recently talked about on the forum.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

GuitarDoc said:
Other than string type and gauge, the only factors that affects the feel/stiffness when bending is the total string length and the tension. The saddle slot shape makes no difference at all unless it actually binds the string, in which case it is effectively shortening the total string length.

Look at an extreme example: If you had a string that was anchored solid at both ends but was only 3 inches long, how easy would it be to bend the string? Nearly impossible unless you were Superman. If that same exact type of string at the same tension was 100 yards long, a baby could easily bend it a foot with his pinky finger. The complication come from bringing the string up to the same pitch. The longer length string requires more tension to bring it to the same pitch as the shorter string, thus making it stiffer.

I think this has been recently talked about on the forum.
Click to expand...


I don't entirely agree. What you're saying is true - scale length and string gauge determine force needed to bend to a given pitch, but it's not the only thing acting on the system.

The feel/stiffness when bending is also impacted by fret size. If you have very small frets, then you need to push harder to make sure that the string is making contact with the fret and not fretting out. That means that you'll generate more friction against the fret which will result in more effort to bend a note. A bigger fret means that less downward force is necessary to fret a note cleanly, which means that less force is required while bending.

Action has an impact on this as well. Very high action requires more fretting force, which generates more friction.

The bridge makes a difference in feel too, if not a difference in tension. A floating bridge moves as you bend. This initially makes it feel like it's easier to do a bend . . . but you'll need to push the string much further than with a fixed tail to get to the correct note.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

GuitarStv said:
What you're saying is true - scale length and string gauge determine force needed to bend to a given pitch, but it's not the only thing acting on the system.
Click to expand...

Actually, I wasn't referring to scale length, but total string length, including before the nut and after the bridge.

GuitarStv said:
The feel/stiffness when bending is also impacted by fret size. If you have very small frets, then you need to push harder to make sure that the string is making contact with the fret and not fretting out. That means that you'll generate more friction against the fret which will result in more effort to bend a note. A bigger fret means that less downward force is necessary to fret a note cleanly, which means that less force is required while bending.
Click to expand...

Totally incorrect. You're assuming that the distance between fret and string is greater if you have smaller frets. Not so. If you keep the same action (fret to string distance) then there is no change in the force needed to depress the strings and no more friction at all.

GuitarStv said:
Action has an impact on this as well. Very high action requires more fretting force, which generates more friction.
Click to expand...

This is what you must have been thinking about when you wrote the previous statement. There is some truth to this. But comparatively, this has very little affect overall.

GuitarStv said:
The bridge makes a difference in feel too, if not a difference in tension. A floating bridge moves as you bend. This initially makes it feel like it's easier to do a bend . . . but you'll need to push the string much further than with a fixed tail to get to the correct note.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely true if comparing trem to fixed bridge. The feel may be softer, but you have to bend the string further to reach the same pitch which ultimately requires the same amount of force. It's just extended over a greater distance.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Steve,

Just put some lube in the nut and bridge slots and it should be fine.
Like for example René Martinez GraphitALL
which did well for bends on my PRS 27"7 scale.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Perhaps on paper, overall string length is the only thing that affects stiffness, but in reality, I think many more things make a difference.

I've owned many guitars with myriad different frets, radii, neck profiles, scales, bridges, etc... The ones with flatter boards, thinner neck profiles, huge frets, and medium-ish action feel the slinkiest to me.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Yes and definitely the hard tail, plus the length of string which is not played, I mean over the nut and the bridge...
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

GuitarDoc said:
Totally incorrect. You're assuming that the distance between fret and string is greater if you have smaller frets. Not so. If you keep the same action (fret to string distance) then there is no change in the force needed to depress the strings and no more friction at all.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not assuming that.

I play with a much lighter touch on guitars with bigger frets . . . because I can. It's not due to action. I actually tend to keep action slightly higher on large fretted guitars to avoid string buzz and because they're easier to fret. Small frets encourage heavy-handedness because they're more prone to buzzing (especially when bending). You compensate for the poor fretting with more finger pressure (or at least I usually do).
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Scale length plays a role indeed, but I've played guitars with great setups of all scale lengths that feel stiff and like I am fighting the whole time. So sometimes, I have to put it down to the individual guitar. I never bothered to study a guitar like that and figure out why, though- I just moved on to a better feeling guitar.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

I know I have accidentally restrung a couple of my Gibsons without my usual tailpiece top-wrap of the strings because I just wasn't thinking about it, and I rarely top wrap for other people's Gibsons. Every time i thought I had installed the wrong gauge string before I realized what had changed. It cannot be the placebo effect because I was NOT expecting it or looking for it. It was an obvious difference in the feel of the string tension that could only be caused by the contact point between the string and the bridge saddle. The strings were no longer, no shorter, and the gauge had not changed. This video details what is not usually taken into consideration about the contact points of the strings:
 
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Re: PRS/Scale question

GuitarStv said:
No, I'm not assuming that.

I play with a much lighter touch on guitars with bigger frets . . . because I can. It's not due to action. I actually tend to keep action slightly higher on large fretted guitars to avoid string buzz and because they're easier to fret. Small frets encourage heavy-handedness because they're more prone to buzzing (especially when bending). You compensate for the poor fretting with more finger pressure (or at least I usually do).
Click to expand...

No, you're wrong again. If YOU play differently with guitars with different size frets, that doesn't change the actual physics involved in the original problem.
 
Re: PRS/Scale question

Interesting video. Several factors involved here...string length; scale length; string gauge; string material (which may affect elasticity/stretchability of the string); brake angle over the nut and saddles (this DOESN'T directly affect the "tension" of the string as the guy in the video suggests, it affects the FRICTION at those points which means that a greater force or tension needs to be applied to bend the string to bring it to pitch). Top wrapping a bridge changes the brake angle and total string length, not "contact point".
 
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