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50ís vs Modern wiring

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  • #31
    Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

    Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    You're not going to get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes...results are very consistent. If you indeed have 50s wiring you probably have dependent volumes. Or you just had everything wired incorrectly.
    It sounds like you've got this a bit confused. Although done on Gibsons this way, 50's wiring has nothing to do with multiple volume knobs. It's a way of connecting the volume and tone pots so that they become interactive with each other (each controlling what you would expect the other to do at different settings), and can be done (with the same inherent flaws/benefits depending on how you look at it) on guitars with a single volume, single tone. Volume pot dependence is a whole different thing.
    Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

    Originally posted by Douglas Adams
    This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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    • #32
      Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

      I use 50's wiring, or "semi 50's wiring", strictly because I get a slightly clearer sound from a neck humbucking pickup when I turn the volume down.

      But I don't like that effect with bright single coils. It sounds too crisp and bright to me.

      So on my Strats and Teles I use "modern" wiring.
      ďPractice cures most tone issuesĒ - John Suhr

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      • #33
        Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

        So, I just made the wiring change. Itís not a HUGE difference but itís a difference nonetheless.
        Monday night is the next band rehearsal so Iíll have a better idea of the changes in that setting.

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        • #34
          Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

          Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
          I use 50's wiring, or "semi 50's wiring", strictly because I get a slightly clearer sound from a neck humbucking pickup when I turn the volume down.

          But I don't like that effect with bright single coils. It sounds too crisp and bright to me.

          So on my Strats and Teles I use "modern" wiring.
          BTW.....I wanted to thank you for posting the above diagram showing the wiring difference in the 2 setups. I referenced it as I was working. It was very helpful. Thanks man!

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          • #35
            Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

            Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
            That silly mixed up statement tells me that either you've never tried "50's tone, independent volumes" wiring, or you don't have a clue what it actually is...or both.
            That silly statement tells me you don't much use your controls. 50s wiring and decoupling your volume controls still results in treble loss when you roll the volume back more than 2-3 notches. This effect is exaggerated as you turn the tone control down. Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control, 50s wiring cannot and will not ever be able to change that.
            If I only had a dollar for every song I've sung
            every time I had to play while people sat there drunk,

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            • #36
              Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

              Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
              It sounds like you've got this a bit confused.
              No, not at all.

              Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
              50's wiring has nothing to do with multiple volume knobs. It's a way of connecting the volume and tone pots
              Absolutely. What, in any of my posts, made you think that I don't totally understand this? It's "independent" or "dependent" wiring that has to do with multiple volume pots. Has nothing to do with 50's tone wiring.
              Originally Posted by IanBallard
              Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

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              • #37
                Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
                That silly statement tells me you don't much use your controls. 50s wiring and decoupling your volume controls still results in treble loss when you roll the volume back more than 2-3 notches. This effect is exaggerated as you turn the tone control down. Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control, 50s wiring cannot and will not ever be able to change that.
                You can get back to me once you learn a little more about this and understand more than just presumed theory and have had more experience. I'm not going to be sucked into a pointless argument.
                Originally Posted by IanBallard
                Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

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                • #38
                  Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                  If 50s wiring completely negated the only downside of independent volumes, trust me, we would have heard about it by now. I've always valued the SDUGF's accuracy when it comes to guitar related information, and you're compromising that.
                  If I only had a dollar for every song I've sung
                  every time I had to play while people sat there drunk,

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                  • #39
                    Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                    "Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control".

                    So are you saying that greater impedance in a vol pot (or as in two independent vol pots in the circuit) makes the tone darker?!

                    Wow! I just learned something new. Teach me more. I want to know.
                    Last edited by GuitarDoc; 07-12-2020, 07:05 AM.
                    Originally Posted by IanBallard
                    Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                      Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
                      No, not at all.



                      Absolutely. What, in any of my posts, made you think that I don't totally understand this? It's "independent" or "dependent" wiring that has to do with multiple volume pots. Has nothing to do with 50's tone wiring.
                      The 'confused' bit is where you were telling me that 50's wiring doesn't make the volume and tone pots interactive with each other. You're completely wrong about that. It absolutely does, regardless of volume pot dependence. With 50's wiring, rolling back the volume if you've got the tone at 50% will change the tone output by the guitar in a very noticible manner. Rolling back the tone when your volume is set at 50% will drop the volume of the guitar in a very noticible manner.

                      You appeared to be unaware of this characteristic when you said that someone wouldn't get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion as to whether or not this is a good change that is desirable in a guitar. You're not entitled to make up your own facts about this happening though.
                      Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                      Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                      This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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                      • #41
                        Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                        Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
                        "Decoupled volume controls have much greater output impedance making them darker when you turn down the volume control".

                        So are you saying that greater impedance in a vol pot (or as in two independent vol pots in the circuit) makes the tone darker?!

                        Wow! I just learned something new. Teach me more. I want to know.
                        "Decoupled volume controls", the wiring scheme, leads to the pickups having higher output impedance. The higher output impedance of the pickups reacts with the increasing resistance of the volume pot as you turn it down, making the tone darker. It's pretty straightforward.
                        If I only had a dollar for every song I've sung
                        every time I had to play while people sat there drunk,

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                          OK, hold on guys. This is getting out of hand, and I think it is because you have been assuming that I have been speaking in absolutes. Certainly your responses would imply that. I am talking about the effects of 50's wiring relative to the effects of modern wiring. That is what this thread is all about (reread the title, reread the OP's first post/question).

                          Will turning down the volume in 50's wiring affect the tone? Yes. But not nearly as much as in modern wiring. That is the main difference between these two wiring schemes (not the ONLY difference). Will turning down the tone pot in 50's wiring reduce the volume? Well, yes, but indirectly, and it depends largely on the value of the capacitor. Turning down the vol pot reduces the amplitude of the signal, making it quieter. Turning down the tone pot reduces the number of different frequencies in the signal without affecting the amplitude of the remaining frequencies, thus making the overall signal "sound" quieter. (Just a side note...I have 4 dozen guitars wired 50's, and none of them totally cut the volume when the tone pot is turned down).

                          50's and modern wiring have nothing to do with dependent or independent wiring.
                          .
                          Originally Posted by IanBallard
                          Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: 50ís vs Modern wiring

                            Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
                            OK, hold on guys. This is getting out of hand, and I think it is because you have been assuming that I have been speaking in absolutes. Certainly your responses would imply that. I am talking about the effects of 50's wiring relative to the effects of modern wiring. That is what this thread is all about (reread the title, reread the OP's first post/question).

                            Will turning down the volume in 50's wiring affect the tone? Yes. But not nearly as much as in modern wiring. That is the main difference between these two wiring schemes (not the ONLY difference). Will turning down the tone pot in 50's wiring reduce the volume? Well, yes, but indirectly, and it depends largely on the value of the capacitor. Turning down the vol pot reduces the amplitude of the signal, making it quieter. Turning down the tone pot reduces the number of different frequencies in the signal without affecting the amplitude of the remaining frequencies, thus making the overall signal "sound" quieter. (Just a side note...I have 4 dozen guitars wired 50's, and none of them totally cut the volume when the tone pot is turned down).

                            50's and modern wiring have nothing to do with dependent or independent wiring.
                            .

                            Modern wiring will cut treble while you roll back the volume. But this problem can be solved with a treble bleed. This gives you the best of both worlds . . . No confusing overlap between volume/tone functions, and no loss of highs when rolling back the volume. The problem/difficulty is that you've got to play around with some component values to get the treble bleed tuned just right.
                            Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                            Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                            This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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