Gibson files new lawsuits

[The Dali]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

Guitar companies really need to stop copying Fender and Gibson. That said Gibson sat idly while lots of other companies made Explorers and Vs, which ironically Gibson did have design patents on.

Fender lost similar lawsuits when the judge ruled they waited too long and allowed those designs to become generic.

Gibson did the same. Problem these days is Henry Juszkiewicz ran Gibson into the ground. Now the new owners are concerned with not losing anymore money.


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Agree 100%. You may hate Gibson or Fender, but man all these "well respected boutique guitar makers" simply just make copies of Strats and Les Pauls and charge $5000+ for them on the market. Yes, I'm talking about Anderson, Suhr, Nash, Grosh and Collings... among others. Nothing original other than finishes and the ability to customize the electronics.

[Masta' C]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

You may hate Gibson or Fender, but man all these "well respected boutique guitar makers" simply just make copies of Strats and Les Pauls and charge $5000+ for them on the market.

Huh? What do you mean?

[The Dali]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

hahaha! What do you mean, indeed!

[Mincer]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

I'd think if any of these lawsuits are successful in either a judgement in Gibson's favor, or scaring the other companies into change, you will have Fender trying the same thing.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

Agree 100%. You may hate Gibson or Fender, but man all these "well respected boutique guitar makers" simply just make copies of Strats and Les Pauls and charge $5000+ for them on the market. Yes, I'm talking about Anderson, Suhr, Nash, Grosh and Collings... among others. Nothing original other than finishes and the ability to customize the electronics.

Meanwhile guitar players swear by them and proudly post NGDs on 3000-dollar Strat/ Tele 'counterfeits' made by these booh-teek makers.

[Mincer]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

Meanwhile guitar players swear by them and proudly post NGDs on 3000-dollar Strat/ Tele 'counterfeits' made by these booh-teek makers.

Thing is, it should force these companies filing the suits to see what these other companies are doing right. Most people who want the absolute best playing Strat don't get an actual Fender. Companies like Suhr and Collings make exceptional guitars. Had Gibson & Fender made comparable-quality guitars as these, they'd have no need to sue, as you'd just get the originals. But it takes a long time to turn a dinosaur...these smaller companies can adapt and change with their customers. They also don't have to lean on tradition so heavily, and can build a better machine.

[Masta' C]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

Dang Mincer, well said!

[ICTGoober]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

But it takes a long time to turn a dinosaur.

Dinosaur is not the right analogy. Monolith works much better.

[nexion218]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

these smaller companies can adapt and change with their customers. They also don't have to lean on tradition so heavily, and can build a better machine.

Just a minor addition: in my opinion they wouldn't even have to change, just "expand their horizons"... It's kinda ironic that that in a sense they were the original innovators, Gibson turned "The Log" into an iconic instrument and Fender made its own indelible mark on guitar and rock music, yet seemingly they wish not to keep the tradition of innovation, but rather that of sitting on their laurels and snuffing out anyone trying to take their place in perfecting and elevating electric guitar.

Of yourse there are the plain and disgusting ripoffs and fakes that add nothing to the instrument but only use the visuals to sell inferior products to earn cash, which should be dealt with properly But as always, it is we, the people who buy inferior/counterfeit/not up to par originals who are keeping this thing alive and moving oftentimes in bad direction. George Carlin used to say that once you willingly take part in a game you have no right to criticze the outcome (he used this in the context of elections, but not only is politics banned here, but I hate it wholeheartedly, hence the change to "game"), however, if you do not take part in it, you have all the right to point out its flaws. Of course, reality is not as simple as it writing a forum post about it, it"s way more complicated than that. Also, I will keep buying Indonesian Jacksons and I also won't quit calling out the big companies for making mistakes or overpricing their products.

[Mincer]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits

Just a minor addition: in my opinion they wouldn't even have to change, just "expand their horizons"... It's kinda ironic that that in a sense they were the original innovators, Gibson turned "The Log" into an iconic instrument and Fender made its own indelible mark on guitar and rock music, yet seemingly they wish not to keep the tradition of innovation, but rather that of sitting on their laurels and snuffing out anyone trying to take their place in perfecting and elevating electric guitar.

Of yourse there are the plain and disgusting ripoffs and fakes that add nothing to the instrument but only use the visuals to sell inferior products to earn cash, which should be dealt with properly But as always, it is we, the people who buy inferior/counterfeit/not up to par originals who are keeping this thing alive and moving oftentimes in bad direction. George Carlin used to say that once you willingly take part in a game you have no right to criticze the outcome (he used this in the context of elections, but not only is politics banned here, but I hate it wholeheartedly, hence the change to "game"), however, if you do not take part in it, you have all the right to point out its flaws. Of course, reality is not as simple as it writing a forum post about it, it"s way more complicated than that. Also, I will keep buying Indonesian Jacksons and I also won't quit calling out the big companies for making mistakes or overpricing their products.

Gibson and Fender have toyed with more modern features in some sort of 'modern' series...and those tend to be great guitars. But I think they need to go buy a few Collings or Suhrs and figure out that you can make every guitar play like that. Both of those companies just aren't set up to spend that much time making 1 guitar. Maybe their custom shops do, but those are so laughably overpriced that no wonder people flock to smaller companies where the builder is the one actually answering the phone.

[nexion218]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits



Gibson and Fender have toyed with more modern features in some sort of 'modern' series...and those tend to be great guitars. But I think they need to go buy a few Collings or Suhrs and figure out that you can make every guitar play like that. Both of those companies just aren't set up to spend that much time making 1 guitar. Maybe their custom shops do, but those are so laughably overpriced that no wonder people flock to smaller companies where the builder is the one actually answering the phone.

Agreed... at least in part. I mean... The highest category instrument I own is an E-II - a factory made production model, in the price range of a LP Standard. Not a single friggin' flaw on it. None. No company should ever de-value their top-of-the-shelf line by not being set up to spend so much time on one guitar. That could be an excuse I accept for Epiphone or Indo Jacksons, but not the "real deals". Despite all that, I fully understand the "more the better" philosphy of a production company.

[ArtieToo]

I hope my comment is "on topic", but to me, a good setup is worth more than a brand name. I get to handle about 1 or 2 Gibson LP's per month, and my EPI's always play, and sound, as good, if not better. Mind you, my EPI's all have upgraded pups and electronics, and a complete pro setup from my luthier friend. Also, the Gibsons don't get a setup until after I do any electronics repair/mods, so that I don't "upset the applecart", so to speak, when I take the strings and stuff off. But still . . . I think you get my point.

[Cynical]

Re: Gibson files new lawsuits



Thing is, it should force these companies filing the suits to see what these other companies are doing right. Most people who want the absolute best playing Strat don't get an actual Fender. Companies like Suhr and Collings make exceptional guitars. Had Gibson & Fender made comparable-quality guitars as these, they'd have no need to sue, as you'd just get the originals. But it takes a long time to turn a dinosaur...these smaller companies can adapt and change with their customers. They also don't have to lean on tradition so heavily, and can build a better machine.

Fender isn't really targeting the market that Suhr or Collings are, though. Fender are more "workhorse guitars" than "heirloom guitars", and IME always deliver excellent quality for the price; the MIM guitars, especially, are great bang-for-the-buck guitars.

Different story with Gibson, and given the price bracket they're playing in, it's probably not a good sign for them that the last couple of times I've picked up a Gibson at a store, I've been able to find an Epiphone version of the same model at the same store that played and sounded better.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Agreed... at least in part. I mean... The highest category instrument I own is an E-II - a factory made production model, in the price range of a LP Standard. Not a single friggin' flaw on it. None. No company should ever de-value their top-of-the-shelf line by not being set up to spend so much time on one guitar. That could be an excuse I accept for Epiphone or Indo Jacksons, but not the "real deals". Despite all that, I fully understand the "more the better" philosphy of a production company.

Is that a fact? Then I think you overpaid. E-II is about the same price range as Ibanez Prestige new, even less if it is used. An LP is at least twice that. E-II is not even a high end, upper mid range maybe but definitely not on par with an LP.

A good factory setup can go ballistic by the time the guitar reaches the dealer due to weather, and some other things in transit. So I don't think we can blame Gibson/ Fender/ Suhr/ etc. for a bad setup. Poor craftsmanship if any, maybe, but not a setup; Unless somebody has different understanding what a 'setup' is.

[nexion218]

Is that a fact? Then I think you overpaid. E-II is about the same price range as Ibanez Prestige new, even less if it is used. An LP is at least twice that. E-II is not even a high end, upper mid range maybe but definitely not on par with an LP.

A good factory setup can go ballistic by the time the guitar reaches the dealer due to weather, and some other things in transit. So I don't think we can blame Gibson/ Fender/ Suhr/ etc. for a bad setup. Poor craftsmanship if any, maybe, but not a setup; Unless somebody has different understanding what a 'setup' is.

Yeah, pretty much.

This is the E-II that I have:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/esp_e_ii_h...ertune_blk.htm

It cureently retails for 2555 Euros, which is around 3k USD.

Here's an LP Standard:

https://www.thomann.de/hu/gibson_les...ard_60s_ub.htm

It currently retails for 2333 Euros, which is 2.8k USD.

And here's the official on E-II, from their website:

"Created at the ESP facility in Tokyo, Japan, the ESP E-II Series is our highest-quality factory-produced instrument collection."

Could be a new thing, but as far as I understand, ESP have scramled their lineup yet again, reserved the ESP brand for Custom Shop and artist sig stuff and currently their highest non-CS/artist sig stuff is E-II. So that pretty much makes them comparable: top-of-the-line factory produced instruments retailing in the 3k USD range. But even if for the sake of discussion we don't accept what ESP says and instead say the the E-II is an upper midrange guitar, that would make my previous post even more valid in my eyes: a mid-tier instrument can be built to a flawless standard (and I'm not talking feature and look, that's subjective, I'm talking build quality and materials), whereas legendary brands fail to set up their production lines to make their top stuff impeccable. And this goes for any maker, not just the big G.

And of course I did not overpay, because it's mine and I like it. I bought it from a guy who bought it new and for some reason sold it off basically unplayed, below 2k. The guy seemed a bit suspect, so I asked ESP to check out the serial and pics and they assured me that it was legit, so I pulled the trigger. The setup vs craftsmanship stuff is well said, I agree fully!