The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Help me out here, people.

I've got a Mesa DC-5 head and 4 x 12 cab with Celestion Vintage 30s. My understanding is that the clean (rhythm) channel is supposed to emulate the Mark IV's circuitry while the crunch (lead) channel is supposed to emulate the Dual Rectifier's circuitry.

When I play through the lead channel I can get some decent crunch, but a couple days ago I plugged into a brand new Dual Rectifier at Guitar Center and was absolutely blown away by the crunch. I thought "There's no f'ing way the DC-5's lead channel comes close to this Dual Rec."

Has anyone else had this experience? Is there something wrong with my DC-5? Has the Dual Rec changed significantly over the past few years? WTF???

- Keith

P.S. I played the Dual Rec at Guitar Center with a Les Paul Standard like I've got at home.

[chill]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

The DC-5's clean channel is 3 gain stages with the tone stack and gain pot between 1 and 2. The dirty channel is 4 gain stages with a hardwired tone stack early on (after stage 1 or 2...it's been a while since I looked at the schemo) and the front panel tone stack at the end of the preamp.

The recto is 4 gain stages plus a cathode follower driving the tone stack at the end, which will generally give you more top end. The recto's 3d stage, like so many modern high gain amps, is a square wave machine. It has a high value cathode resistor (39K?).

I heard the DC series was the predecessor to the rectos. I consider the DC-5 to be high gain, but not as high as the recto. Did the Mark IV come out before or after the DC's? The DC clean channel sort of looks like the Mark I if you blur your eyes and move the reverb and master volumes around...though I think the Fender HR series looks more like the Mark I than the DC's...

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

The DC-5's clean channel is 3 gain stages with the tone stack and gain pot between 1 and 2. The dirty channel is 4 gain stages with a hardwired tone stack early on (after stage 1 or 2...it's been a while since I looked at the schemo) and the front panel tone stack at the end of the preamp.

The recto is 4 gain stages plus a cathode follower driving the tone stack at the end, which will generally give you more top end. The recto's 3d stage, like so many modern high gain amps, is a square wave machine. It has a high value cathode resistor (39K?).

I heard the DC series was the predecessor to the rectos. I consider the DC-5 to be high gain, but not as high as the recto. Did the Mark IV come out before or after the DC's? The DC clean channel sort of looks like the Mark I if you blur your eyes and move the reverb and master volumes around...though I think the Fender HR series looks more like the Mark I than the DC's...

Okay, I need Gain Stage and Tone Stack 101. Would you go into some detail regarding what you mean by "gain stage" and "tone stack." I've got a hazy idea but would like some clarification.

[fenderiarhs]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I'm not an expert on schematics but from what i know and from what my ears are telling me the DC5 is closer to the mark series than to the rectifier series.

[chill]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

Okay, I need Gain Stage and Tone Stack 101. Would you go into some detail regarding what you mean by "gain stage" and "tone stack." I've got a hazy idea but would like some clarification.

Gain stage: each 12ax7 tube has two triodes in it. Each one is a gain block and you can set it up conventionally so it's a gain stage, and will have a voltage gain of 30-60 or so, or you can set it up as a cathode follower which will have a gain a little less than 1 but has a low output impedance which is better for driving tone stacks.

Tone stack: the set of pots, resistors, and capacitors which make up your tone controls.

Check out www.ax84.com and go to the P1 project page which has the P1 theory document which will go into some more technical details.

And I agree with fenderiarhs that the DC's sound closer to old mesas than new mesas.

[Neeradj]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I'm not an expert on schematics but from what i know and from what my ears are telling me the DC5 is closer to the mark series than to the rectifier series.

That's exactly what my ears told me when I had a DC-5 combo

[slightly_rude]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I had a DC-10 and a DC-5 and have had my Dual Rec Tremoverb for 5 years. I sold the DC-5 a few months ago and had several playing experiences with a buddies Mark IV.
The DC series (or Dual Caliber series, not to be lumped in with the Studio Caliber series) came out in 1994-5 after the Mark IV (1990) and is a much darker, thicker amp with a lot more inherent mids tha the Dual Recs. The Dual Recs have 5 gain stages and have more bottom and more top end cut than the DCs. The Dual Recs also share more of their gain stages than the Dcs. Some say that the Dual Recs are scooped in the mids but I have found that with my guitars and effects that the mids are plenty. Your DC-5 sounds like mine did. Out of all my guitars, I found that my Strats sounded the best. In fact, my Lesters sounded like chit (no clarity at all on the dirt channel). That's why I sold it.

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I understand that bands like the Foo Fighters and Rage Against the Machine use Dual Rectifiers. I'd LOVE to get that kind of sound out of my DC-5, but I suppose I can't. Does anyone feel they could get that kind of crunch out of a DC-5?

[BluesGuyJ]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

Try throwing down an OD pedal. I tried my friend's DC-5, and it had less gain than I had expected, but still sounded great. It had a Petrucci type tone.

[FireBros.]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I specifically remember the "Studio Caliber" being advertised as having Mark series cleans with Recto series distortion, but I don't remember how they described the higher wattage DC models.

[Quencho092]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

DAAANG! That many gain stages in a Mesa? How many are there in a regular fender?

[rguser]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

good thread,
I was just comparing the f series to recto's. as I understand the f-series replaced dual caliber's. so where does f series gain level stand with rectos? all they say is "less, but not by much". so my question is what kind of recto sound can the f series NOT do?

[chill]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

Does anyone feel they could get that kind of crunch out of a DC-5?

Not exactly, though with some tweaks to that hardwired tone stack early on in the dirty channel, you could probably get a brighter sound. Closer? Maybe. The same? No. The best way to get a recto levels of gain is with a recto, SLO, Bogner, Lee Jackson Ampeg 502/1002, Laney AOR, 5150, or Marshall 2203/2204 circuit modified with an added gain stage. All of them (except the 5150) have 4 gain stages plus a cathode follower with the tone stack after the cathode follower. The earlier amps have a "circle the JCM 800 preamp" part of their preamp, while the later amps are more tailored and complex.

How many gain stages in which Fender? The Deluxe Reverb AB763 circuit has 3 gain stages on the reverb/trem channel and throws away a bunch of gain with that 3.3M/220K divider. Many of the black and silver face circuits have a similar preamp. Many of the modern Fenders (prosonic, "the twin", HR series) have overdrive channels with 4 gain stages.

[zippy]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I understand that bands like the Foo Fighters and Rage Against the Machine use Dual Rectifiers. I'd LOVE to get that kind of sound out of my DC-5, but I suppose I can't. Does anyone feel they could get that kind of crunch out of a DC-5?

I dunno about the Foo Fighters, but Tom Morello (RATM) uses a Marshall JCM800 2205.

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: The DC-5 and the Dual Rectifier

I dunno about the Foo Fighters, but Tom Morello (RATM) uses a Marshall JCM800 2205.

Sorry, I meant Tool (Adam Jones). For some reason I had it in my head that Tom Morello used a Dual Rec. Maybe I had them mixed up in my head because they used to play in the same band in high school.

Dave Grohl definitely uses a Dual Rec with the Foo Fighters.