Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

[crazytooguy]

OK, y'all. Moving forward with my custom Tele project and womdering what experiences you've had with these two compensated nut designs. I fully agree with the idea that a compensated nut gives much better intonation, but which system is best? The Earvana is just the nut - it mainly works on the lower frets to bring those fretted notes into proper intonation. The Feiten setup requires a tuner with the proper scaling - sorta like the 1600s equal temperament tuning, along with the "shelf" nut. So, any experience with these? Anyone try both and decide which one they liked best? Tanks!!

[ArtieToo]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Hi crazytooguy; I don't have experience with either one of these systems, but when I think about how many great guitarists, (and guitars), have never used them . . . it makes me wonder.

[rspst14]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

I'd be interested in hearing more about the Earvana system, as it doesn't require any permanent modifications to the guitar the way the Feiten system does. I've been researching it for a while, and I've come to the conclusion that the two systems are close enough that the Earvana is the better choice. Both systems adjust the intonation over the entire neck, although they focus on the first five frets. Because the Feiten system requires permanent mods and special tuning offsets, it seems to me like you'd be better off with the Earvana system. Assuming the installation is done properly, I don't think you can really go wrong with either.

Ryan

[ArtieToo]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Oh well,let me know if you want to know how we did our nuts and saddles.

I'ld like to know.

[UCSDBoy]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Okay,just looked up the Earvana system.

F*CK!!!!!!!!!!

No lie,I was custom compensating nuts and saddles years ago as per order.Now it's patended!?!?!?
Ours were also compensated for volume and tone balance,but few people wanted to spend the $60.00 on the nut or $30.00 on the saddle,($80.00 if you ordered both).

Anyway bitterness aside,I would go with the Feiten system if you want accuracy,but it is a lot more work.
The Earvana system would be best if you wanted to use a standard tuner and make the build a little easier on yourself.

Patended .

Oh well,let me know if you want to know how we did our nuts and saddles.

You know, if you really had something going you could claim prior art - just because the patent office awards a patent doesn't mean you can't fight it. Also - patent lawyers try to make the claim as broad as possible, but there still has to be specifics like a working prototype, build diagrams, etc. If there's something unique to your process you can still try to patent it. Costs like 6-8k though...

[Seraphial]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

My Washburn has the Earvana installed on it, and yes there is a improvement in intonation. Is it worth it? For $25 & no permanent mods I'd say hell yeah. The only thing that drives me nuts (no pun intended) is that the nuts sticks out a lotfrom the fretboard, so its quite easy to catch yourself when barring near the end of the fretboard.

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Okay,just looked up the Earvana system.

F*CK!!!!!!!!!!

No lie,I was custom compensating nuts and saddles years ago as per order.Now it's patended!?!?!?
Ours were also compensated for volume and tone balance,but few people wanted to spend the $60.00 on the nut or $30.00 on the saddle,($80.00 if you ordered both).

Anyway bitterness aside,I would go with the Feiten system if you want accuracy,but it is a lot more work.
The Earvana system would be best if you wanted to use a standard tuner and make the build a little easier on yourself.

Patended .

Oh well,let me know if you want to know how we did our nuts and saddles.

You're not alone. My repair guy has been doing the same thing for some time, too.

[TwofacePimp]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

I just installed the feiten system on my LP, and I can see an improvement in tuning. It does not require permanent modification of your axe, and you tune the open strings with a regular tuner (you need special tuners to tune the offsets if you're adjusting the saddles). This service is usually pretty expensive, depending on who installs it. I haven't tried the earvana system.

On initial impression, I think the feiten system is a little weird. I can hear that the guitar is in better tune, but I think I'm so used to hearing the guitar in it's normal out-of-tune state that it sounds a little funny. I haven't had much time to test it yet, but I'm taking it to practice tonight. Has anyone else had this experience with either system?

[Fresh_Start]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Hey JohnJohn -

I'd love to hear about your approach to compensating nuts & saddles sometime.

Sorry about the *&$%#(&* patent.

Chip

[Hellion]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Ya know, I'm sure it does wonders for intonation, but if you're like me, you rely on your ear for tuning and with the huge frets that I use, I can mash the chord into shape.

[MattPete]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

I didn't like the Earvana. I thought the guitar sounded more out of tune than the straight nut I tried (yes, I intonated after installing both nuts). I think it's true that most nuts are too back, and should be closer to the body, reducing the tendency for the 1st and 2nd fretted notes to go sharp from the increased pressure to fret those notes. I thought about filing the compensation part down so that the Earvana was flat and moving the nut closer to the body (it slides easily and the final position is clamped down by screws), but I never got around to trying that.

If you look up the Feiten patent, the nut is moved forward only a mm or 2.

[Kent S.]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Never used either one, equal temperment is just that, everything is out slightly by the same amount except octaves and unisons ... a little finger pressure goes a long way towards fixing that ... interesting note though, although I'm not up on the exact details of each system (thank GOD it's not that fretwave thing ), I remember reading an article in which Buzz Fetien himself made reference to my favourite tuner (BOSS TU-12H) as having the *offsets built in* ... I still don't know what he is referring to,but I do think that the TU-12H intonates guitars better than a lot of tuners ... still it leaves me scratching my head ... I wonder if these offsets that he talks about are sthe same thing as the Steinberger tuners *spread mode*, like for tuning pianos? Where the low notes a slighlty sharp, and the high notes slightly flat, it has to do with the way the human brain interprets sound. Pitch and frquency are two *separate* things altogether. You can actually tune two sine waves to exact frequencies that should be a perfect fifth, and by simply sweeping the volume from soft to loud make them sound in tune at some levels and out of tune at others ... Look it up in a book on acoustics if you don't believe me. The brain tells us what it perceives as in tune and slightly out. I wonder is the offset that he speaks of are part of that spread tuning?
Interesting ...

[crazytooguy]

Thanks for all the thoughts!

One thing that bugs me as a builder is that I can't order the Feiten nut unless I go through the training course, which is a big pain since I build about two guitars per year. I like the Earvana "OEM" nut, which doesn't look as kludgey as the retrofit. It also allows me to choose my string positions, while the retrofit doesn't. The Earvana EOM looks a lot like the nuts good 12-string builders used 20 yrs ago to get the pairs to play in tune on the lower frets. I may go with the Earvana OEM for the Tele. I'll let you know how it turns out!

[Kent S.]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

Kent_what Fieten is referring to is the accuracy of the cent markings and the increments that they display on the face.It's up a cent here,down a 1/2 cent there.That kinda thing.

I'm with you on the TU-12H,accurate and damn near indestructable.

I'm gonna post that stuff about the nut I wrote about when I can get near a scanner.
Also,years age,Lenny Breau came up with a way of compensateing the tuning
without any alterations to the guitar.

Oh, so that's what he's talking about, i was under the impression that it had some kind of tempering spread over it's octaves. He's just talking about the actual resolution shown on the meter face then. One thing i still can't understand is, that if the nut is positioned and cut correctly (string height distance off the first fret when fretted at the second fret; being equal to string height off the second fret when fretted at the first fret )... then why it would pull sharper than any other place? I've never understood that, kinda like that split intonation thing that Gatton does on the Tele, man just have six saddles made and drill the bridge ... hey as long as it works for 'em.

[MattPete]

Re: Compensated nuts - Earvana vs. Feiten - which one?

One thing i still can't understand is, that if the nut is positioned and cut correctly (string height distance off the first fret when fretted at the second fret; being equal to string height off the second fret when fretted at the first fret )... then why it would pull sharper than any other place?

It has to do with the string *between* your finger and the nut. The closer your finger is to the nut, the sharper the angle the string breaks over the nut (on the fretboard size). Or to put it another way, you have to press down harder at the 1st fret (compared to the 5th or 12th), and this increases the tension of the string, making it go sharp.

To minimize this, you want a nut that is as low as possible without causing buzzing. Think of it in the opposite way: if the nut was one inch taller, you'd have to press the string *way* down to get it to fret at the 1st fret, which would increase string tension radically, making the note go way sharp.

All (or 99.9%) of guitar makers place the nut at the mathematically defined location, when it should really be set a little forward (a mm or 2). If you move the nut a little forward, this is equivalent to moving the frets a little back (stay with me here -- don't let me lose you!). So, let's say you move the nut forward and intonated so that the 12th fret plays one octave higher than the open string. Now the 1st fret is closer to the nut than it should be mathematically, and should play slightly flat. But, because of the increased string tension that occurs when fretting the 1st and 2nd frets, this should balance out if done right (or at least come closer). This effect of moving the nut forward will rapidly dissipate and be nonexistent by the time you get to the 12th fret, but that's exactly what you want, as fretting tension is worst at the first 2 frets.

This is half of what Feiten does. The other half is his temperment stuff. But, from what I understand, anything other than standard temperment is key specific. But I could be wrong on that last part.

Earvana trys to do both the temperment and moving the nut forward in one fell swoop (which is why the Earvana overlays the fretboard). I had no success with this. Sure, open chords sounded better, but triad chords played higher up the neck (ala Van Halen) sounded like ass. I think part of the problem is that the Earvana is a one-size-fits-all approach. This won't work for most people/guitars, just like a bridge with fixed intonation won't work. Different string sizes and brands need different intonation. Different players need different intonation because the pressure they use when fretting changes depending on where they are on the fretboard and even with the shape of the chord.

Now, if someone sold a nut with movable saddles like a bridge, we could set our own compensation!

On the other hand, the Earvana is $20 or so. Buy an Earvana and a regular nut (Graphtech can be bought pre-slotted) and see which one you like better.


BTW: higher string tension also affects how in tune notes are. Many players don't press down evenly, and pull some strings slightly to the side (do a barre chord, and I'll bet you'll notice this). A guitar with higher string tension will resist that lateral movement, which is one of the reasons it's easier to get good sounding chords on a long scale guitar like a strat as compared to a shorter scale guitar like a Gibson.