Locking nut quality and tuning stability

[Inflames626]

Hi guys,
I'm in the habit of buying mid quality import guitars, usually Japanese, and upgrading them with better hardware and pickups. This is to save a few bucks but also because some guitars like my beloved Jackson Kellys tend to be bolt ons when imported, which I prefer over a thru-neck American made model. To my ear, bolt ons have brighter attack and faster transients than set and thru necks, and I also have the benefit of not losing the whole guitar if the neck breaks.

A Schaller non-Lockmeister bridge, per JCFOnline and my experience retrofitting, tends to fit the Japanese guitars' routs better than an OFR, which has longer saddle bolts and cannot be properly intonated to do full pull ups if the string has to be lengthened a lot. Many of these Japanese bridges like the Jackson Takeuchi JT-580 LP are actually more similar to a Floyd Rose Pro than an OFR. Unfortunately, a FR Pro does not fit the rout.

That said, most of these import guitars use an R8 nut size, which is shallower than an R2-R3 nut. U.S. made Jacksons use R3 nuts but they are too tall.

R8 nuts are really hard to find and to my knowledge only Floyd Rose sells them. Usually I have to take an R3 nut to a machine shop to have it ground down to the proper .225" height.

That said, I began to wonder if upgrading the nut is even necessary. On import nuts, the nut pads tend to be smaller and made of softer zinc. However, if the pads and nut do not yet have grooves in them, I am wondering if they would even compromise tuning stability in the first place. After all, the non-fine tuner Floyds don't even have locking nuts--such as on the Guthrie Govan signature models. It seems like steel saddles and blocks are far more important for tuning stability than locking nuts.

So, to get to my point: do you guys think I could put a Schaller non-Lockmeister bridge on the guitar, set it up, and be able to stay in tune using the stock import nut if the nut isn't too worn? I am hoping it would work at least until I am able to source more quality R8 locking nuts.

Much obliged,
Aaron

[dystrust]

It'd probably be fine, and if the pads are the same size you could just replace them when they wear out.

[Inflames626]

Thanks for the fast reply, dystrust.

If I recall I tried the Schaller nut pads on the import nuts and they didn't work. The import Allen screws spun in the Schaller pads because the screws were too small, although that might not have mattered once they were screwed into the nut. Then again, if the pads wiggled, they wouldn't have been very useful. The Schaller screws might have been too large to thread into the import nut. And the Schaller nut pads might have been to wide for the import nut. It's been several years since I've done a guitar project. I think if it would have worked I would have been using it by now.

I do know that I am generally not comfortable with a non-locking nut. I am concerned that the nut slot will not be lubricated and cause the string to catch and break due to friction, or I am concerned that the string will break at the wind on the tuning post during an aggressive pull up.

In addition, I often leave the balls on my string ends as a lock around my tuner capstan. With the string locked at the tuner and at the nut I feel it is more secure if the whammy bar is going to be used aggressively.

It's either fooling with all of this or getting a degree in mechanical engineering and woodworking so I can install and understand how to use a Kahler. No thanks.

I'll return to this thread to report my results once I test all of these things out.

Thanks again for all replies.

[ICTGoober]

I always preferred string locks located behind the nut, but these days I usually recommend locking tuning machines.

[GuitarStv]

I always preferred string locks located behind the nut

Why?

Seems like that would only introduce potential tuning problems for no benefit. A Floyd with locking tuners will occasionally bind in the nut and go out of tune, whereas a floyd with a typical locking nut won't (because it can't).

[dystrust]

Seems like that would only introduce potential tuning problems for no benefit.

That's been my experience. My 80s MIJ Charvels had Kahler behind-the-nut clamps, and they never stayed in tune very well.



I'd originally planned to replace them with Floyd locking nuts like Kerry King or Jerry Cantrell, but then I found the Kahler 5521. It's essentially a Floyd locking nut, but the string retainer is incorporated into the backside of the nut. As a bonus, it can be unlocked with a coin or flathead screwdriver in addition to the hex wrench. It's been roughly 4 years since I had my tech swap them and tuning stability has never been so stable.

[Inflames626]

I always preferred string locks located behind the nut, but these days I usually recommend locking tuning machines.

I've never tried locking tuners, but to some extent they strike me as unnecessary if the ball end is used in the capstan (not really possible if using a tune-o-matic, though) or if the string coil is locked by pulling the string end at an angle to the coil so the string tensions itself around the post (hard to explain but easy to show--guitar tech John Carruthers showed me this as part of his guitar maintenance class at GIT in 1999). Basically the loose end of the string gets trapped between the capstan and the string coil and can't escape unless it's really yanked hard and at an odd angle. Using this method, I've seen guitar strings pulled vertically away from the body and the tuning still hold.

Locking at the tuners concerns me during pull ups because the string is being yanked at a 90 degree angle to the capstan. This seems to be an issue more with unwound strings and how they tend to kink at the posts and break unless wound carefully. I imagine this is more of an issue with thick gauge strings (11-13), since they are thick enough to be hard to loop but not thick enough to be strong. Thus when you do a pull up to the wood it's almost like the string is too short for the distance and snaps at the tuning peg.

Meanwhile a locking nut exerts downward force, which seems to take pressure off the capstan.

An example might be pulling your hair. It will tug on your scalp. Now pull your hair while your other hand holds it mid strand. You no longer feel the tug from your scalp--only from the pinch point of your fingers.

Locking tuners to me are a lot like Fender or Wilkinson style vibratos--they're for players who want some mild use of the whammy bar on chords but aren't going to do extreme pulls or make warble effects by slapping the bar. Or they're for players who prefer a fixed bridge but don't want the guitar to come out of tune during transport.

In such a case, I'd rather just have a tune-o-matic bridge than a vintage style vibrato. With a fixed bridge, I can change tunings and intonate quickly. That's more important to me than messing with a restrictive vibrato system that's only half as good as what I want.

As far as string trees, retainers, etc., those seem idiosyncratic to the individual headstock and its slant angle from the nut. My Peavey Rotor (a rare Explorer shaped guitar with a Floyd Rose) has one. I don't think it's necessary, but it's good to know something is there to keep the string from hitting me in the face if it breaks at the capstan.

[Mincer]

Why?

Seems like that would only introduce potential tuning problems for no benefit. A Floyd with locking tuners will occasionally bind in the nut and go out of tune, whereas a floyd with a typical locking nut won't (because it can't).

I wonder about this, too. Seems Kahler used to do that because of patents, but both a nut and a lock seems like the nut can still bind.

[ICTGoober]

Why? Seems like that would only introduce potential tuning problems for no benefit

I can't imagine why it would seem that way to you. If the string is locked behind the nut or on the nut - what's the diff? It's definitely easier to set the action at a real nut as compared to a Floyd locking nut. And don't EVEN try to sell me that crap about Floyds not going out of tune. If they were great, I wouldn't have had all those clients bringing them into my shop in the 80's and 90's with that complaint.

[ICTGoober]

but both a nut and a lock seems like the nut can still bind.

Is that the nut's fault? NO. An experienced and competent luthier will set up the nut to prevent binding - locking tuners or locking nuts withstanding. It's one of my specialties.

[Inflames626]

I can't imagine why it would seem that way to you. If the string is locked behind the nut or on the nut - what's the diff? It's definitely easier to set the action at a real nut as compared to a Floyd locking nut. And don't EVEN try to sell me that crap about Floyds not going out of tune. If they were great, I wouldn't have had all those clients bringing them into my shop in the 80's and 90's with that complaint.

For me, the biggest advantage to an FR nut is the "set and forget" aspect, whereas getting a traditional nut right takes some skill and knowledge.

As an example, I have a Chinese made Hamer Scarab that was made just before Hamer was sold to Fender and went out of business. It's a great guitar for the price--I paid about $200 for it 10 years or so ago--and it is even set neck. It has a tune-o-matic bridge. After a pickup upgrade to some Gibson 57 Classic + and 498t pickups, I basically consider myself to have a poor man's Gibson. I usually use the Hamer for rhythm chugging duty since it can be retuned and intonated quickly.

The only quality control problem was the nut. It was made of black plastic and was slotted incorrectly. When I went from 9 to 10 gauge strings, the G string would buzz when played open so that it sounded like a sitar. I had to have the nut replaced and reslotted--something that only a skilled repair person can do, since most people will tell you that nut filing is a tedious task.

As far as nut adjustments, regular nuts can be shimmed, but so can FR nuts. Regular nuts also have to be glued, not something those of us like to do who don't enjoy working with wood. Both nuts suffer when the nut shelf isn't deep enough, which is the problem in my case.

I don't know enough to know if lock location makes a difference. I think testing out a regular Floyd nut against an FRX nut might be interesting, since I think the FRX nut clamps have to be moved in front of the nut to compensate for the truss rod cover.

To be honest, I'm surprised Floyd nuts aren't used in place of regular nuts on fixed bridged guitars. Floyd nuts are simpler to use and adjust relative to a regular nut that has to be filed. All of this is just my opinion, of course.

[Inflames626]

Also, FRs have been used to hundreds if not thousands of famous bands over the years. I'm sure some have come out of tune over the years in a live situation. I'm sure tuning instability is especially evident on a strobe tuner. But I'm not sure any tuning system is perfect. And what you gain in tuning stability with a fixed bridge you lose in flexibility with the vibrato.

ICTGoober has a point about FR tuning instability. Here Herman Li of Dragonforce shows that even his high end, expensive Ibanezes don't stay in tune perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzTJ-R89KI&t=52s

So the question is, what is an acceptable level of tuning instability?

In my view, the Floyd is a time tested, if imperfect design. Even Jeff Beck has managed to somehow keep his vintage style Fenders in tune in a live situation after some pretty violent whammy bar usage, but he's Jeff Beck.

For (some of) the rest of us, there's the Floyd Rose.

[Mincer]

Dunno, I have little experience with either, but not everyone has access to a luthier as good as you are.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Why?

Seems like that would only introduce potential tuning problems for no benefit. A Floyd with locking tuners will occasionally bind in the nut and go out of tune, whereas a floyd with a typical locking nut won't (because it can't).

Obviously you haven't used FR style bridge long enough to figure out that, every one of it goes out of tune when depressed all the way down; though not noticeable in playing situation; it shows in a digital tuner. I discovered this with original Floyd, licensed Floyd, even the venerated Ibanez original Edge suffers from this issue.

To fix it just pull it up it will return to zero.



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[dave74]

I hated the old Charvel behind-the-nut locks. I've skipped on many of these on craigslist. They can obviously be converted, but I already have enough projects piled-up.