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Locking nut quality and tuning stability

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  • #16
    I think any locking nut should give you tuning stability. Unless there's something wrong with the pads, of course.

    My Floyds have been absolutely rock solid. One of mine languished in storage for eighteen months and was still dead on when I pulled it out, except that the G string needed a quarter turn on its fine tuner. Amazing. Of course the guitar was in a case deep enough that the strings weren't stretched when closed. Also, mine are original Floyds, more than forty years old now.
    .
    "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
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    • #17
      A lot of people have tried to replace the FR over the years, but for some reason it never happens. I think EVH is a big part of that.

      I'm surprised some sort of cam mounted system like a Kahler didn't catch on first since it can be mounted directly to the top of the guitar and you don't have to worry about cutting a huge square out of the body to make room for the spring claw and sustain block.

      Here's a video of a guy who invented a new bridge that had some improvements over the Floyd: the AxMax. I don't think it caught on and it has been out of production for years.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Obsessive Compulsive View Post
        Obviously you haven't used FR style bridge long enough to figure out that, every one of it goes out of tune when depressed all the way down; though not noticeable in playing situation; it shows in a digital tuner. I discovered this with original Floyd, licensed Floyd, even the venerated Ibanez original Edge suffers from this issue.

        To fix it just pull it up it will return to zero.
        I've never had a problem with any of the three OFR equipped guitars I've got going out of tune with a locking nut - even with heavy trem usage.
        Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

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        This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Inflames626 View Post
          A lot of people have tried to replace the FR over the years, but for some reason it never happens. I think EVH is a big part of that.

          I'm surprised some sort of cam mounted system like a Kahler didn't catch on first since it can be mounted directly to the top of the guitar and you don't have to worry about cutting a huge square out of the body to make room for the spring claw and sustain block.

          Here's a video of a guy who invented a new bridge that had some improvements over the Floyd: the AxMax. I don't think it caught on and it has been out of production for years.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESsBl0jWSS0
          I think the TransTrem was a good improvement on the FR, since all the strings moved at different rates so they would stay in tune as you dive bombed or pulled up. You also used double-ball strings, and the system was only available on 1 brand of guitar.
          Administrator of the SDUGF

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          • #20
            I had a Schaller Lockmeister and an R3 nut installed on a 96 Jackson Dinky with no issues whatsoever. Setup and intonation were spot in.
            Guitars:Gibson LP Trad ('57 Classics); Ibanez SEW761FM (TB-16/STK-S7 m&n); Charvel DK24 (TB10/SSL-6/A2Pn), DK22 (HRb/SSL-6 m&n), SoCal Style1 (Distortion set) & SoCal Style2 24 2PT (Fluence OCC); ESP LTD MH-1000HS (TB-14/Lil59n); Effects: Line 6 Helix Floor, Digitech Drop & FreqOut, ME EP-1L6,Shure GLXD16, Headrush MX5;

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Synapsys View Post
              I had a Schaller Lockmeister and an R3 nut installed on a 96 Jackson Dinky with no issues whatsoever. Setup and intonation were spot in.
              Synapsys , was your Dinky US or Japanese? I'm thinking on my Japanese guitars if I use a regular R3 nut the nut will be too tall and the action way too high.

              If I'm correct the main difference between the Schaller non-Lockmeister and the Lockmeister is the Lockmeister is slightly larger--basically an exact copy of an OFR in size.

              To the other comments about string retainers, etc., something to think about is potential bind and friction points on the string. Something designed to help keep a string in tune isn't going to help if it helps the string to bind and break.

              And we haven't discussed sustain block size. The popular thing for a few years now has been to get a big block Floyd, mainly due to FUTone and other sites.

              However, I think the cheaper licensed bridges are actually smoother in motion--less sustain, yes, but also less weight, and a smaller block that can't bump into the wood and interfere with range of motion. So I prefer the smallest block size--32mm.

              I do have a Schaller Ruthenium bridge which is 42mm. It was bought from a domestic dealer so it was slightly cheaper than getting it straight from Schaller in Germany. We'll see how that goes.

              For any of you who have satin chrome hardware and need a Schaller replacement, I don't think they make a color that is an exact match. I have found through trial and error that neither nickel nor ruthenium is an exact match with OFR satin chrome. It's hard to tell this from Schaller's pictures.

              Mincer , your comment brings to mind the Floyd Rose Speedloader system, I think. If I remember correctly it required double balled strings as well, and that requirement was one of the reasons the Speedloader wasn't more successful.

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              • #22
                Something else about a bigger sustain block that I forgot to mention (it won't let me edit the comment for some reason) is potentially undesirable increased bass. A guitar with pickup X and a zinc block may have just enough low end, but the same guitar and pickup with a huge block may become a muddy mess and require a brighter pickup.

                I plan on all my guitars to sound slightly different after all the bridge retrofitting. It's going to be a long night at the solder bench.

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                • #23
                  Mine was a japanese DK2. The only issue was merely cosmetic, since the Lockmeister's baseplate was shaped differently from the stcok JT580LP.
                  Guitars:Gibson LP Trad ('57 Classics); Ibanez SEW761FM (TB-16/STK-S7 m&n); Charvel DK24 (TB10/SSL-6/A2Pn), DK22 (HRb/SSL-6 m&n), SoCal Style1 (Distortion set) & SoCal Style2 24 2PT (Fluence OCC); ESP LTD MH-1000HS (TB-14/Lil59n); Effects: Line 6 Helix Floor, Digitech Drop & FreqOut, ME EP-1L6,Shure GLXD16, Headrush MX5;

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                  • #24
                    Beautiful guitar. I had the same issue with the gap around the edges with an OFR--less so with the Schaller non-Lockmeister.

                    The line drawing shows it as being 92.2 mm across for the non-Lockmeister.

                    If I read the diagram correctly it looks like the Lockmeister is 91.7 mm across.

                    Front to back the non-Lockmeister is 64.5 mm max. The Lockmeister is 76 mm max.

                    The smaller front to back size is why I went with the non-Lockmeister version. It fits my guitar better than the Lockmeister does.

                    I'll have to try the R3 vs. the R8. .278" vs. .225" seems like a big difference.

                    Schaller Tremolo – the classic with zinc cast baseplate Our long-term experience with the production of Double locking tremolos has gone into the development of this identical tremolo. Exchangeable knife edges made of hardened steel...


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                    • #25
                      As an update on this thread, I have finished my Jackson KV3 I was working on with this thread in mind.

                      It has an OFR, Full Shred set with Triple Shots on both pickups, the neck pickup is a push/pull wired for phase, and the bridge pickup is a Shadow killswitch pot.

                      The two volumes are independent.

                      I designed this as versatile as possible as a lead guitar in standard tuning.

                      What this will let me do is:

                      1) Get any coil combination I want from either pickup.
                      2) Get an out of phase AND parallel sound for brighter, thinner sounding cleans, especially from the neck pickup.
                      3) Allow me to alter that sound further by going to the middle toggle position and turning down the pickup I do not want if needed (to my ears going to middle toggle thins the sound even further when a pickup is isolated in that position).
                      4) Use a killswitch when soloing from the bridge pickup.

                      The only limitations I might have with it is the lack of independent tone knobs/killswitches for each pickup, but I don't solo that much from the neck and I only use a tone knob when I need to fatten up a clean or solo sound. I don't ride the tone knob for effect.

                      I tried the import clamps on the OFR nut and the OFR pads on the import nut. Things work with some reservations. There's a bit of a gap between the OFR clamps and the import nut. It looks like more than the gap with the OFR nut and clamps. That larger gap might create tuning instability. I don't know.

                      I eventually switched back to the OFR nut and clamps. Tuning was fine after a few stretches. Usually I dive bomb and pull up slowly back and forth several times when I have a new set of strings put on. Eventually they adjust.

                      (As an aside, the OFR clamps were actually salvaged from a FR Pro I never used. I lost the OFR clamps. The Pro clamps worked in the OFR nut flawlessly.)

                      Looking forward to fluttering the whammy bar while using the killswitch. Thanks for the help, all.

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                      • #26
                        Another update on this one for another guitar. In conclusion, yes you can use import locking nuts with higher quality bridges and have good tuning stability.

                        I built an LTD F-200 with a Schaller Floyd Rose (non-Lockmeister) and a Mastertone VHOn/SPA2. I set it up for Bb standard tuning, 12 gauge strings, and a killswitch.

                        I kept the import nut and, in the back, the import screws, springs, and claw. I didn't want to use larger screws because they would take out more wood and I didn't want to have to resolder the bridge ground wire to a new claw, so I used what was in the guitar. I didn't worry about a loss of tone due to import parts much. The sustain block was already a bit bigger than normal--42mm--so it stuck out the back cavity a bit. I removed the spring cavity cover and left it off.

                        The only thing that was Schaller was the bridge: essentially the baseplate, the sustain block, the saddles, the saddle blocks, the whammy bar, etc.

                        After setting up the claw, truss rod, action, and string length, I used the bar pretty aggressively, dipping it to the wood and pulling the strings sharp about a minor or major third--as far as it would go sharp.

                        After a few times doing this, the strings stayed in tune, barely moving a few cents on the strobe tuner. Not even 1/4 of a step.

                        What I've learned:
                        1) The import nut works fine to keep the strings in tune as long as the nut pads aren't excessively worn.

                        2) The most important parts of the tremolo system for tuning stability seem to be the saddles and saddle blocks.

                        3) A common issue on Floyds--the strings going sharp after locking the nut down--can be fixed by tightening the string retainer on the headstock if you have one. I have a video from Frudua to thank for this: https://youtu.be/JBF3LCQk7zg?t=206

                        Until now I considered a string retainer to be mostly decorative or there for peace of mind if a string broke above the nut.

                        I thought tightening the retainer would be a bad thing by putting additional stress on the strings between the nut and headstock. But, it helped the guitar stay in tune the more the retainer was screwed down into the wood. With the retainer screwed in further, the strings stopped going sharp whenever I clamped the locking nut down.

                        4) The most important part of keeping a Floyd in tune is setting up the spring claw correctly. To do this I sometimes do what I call "tuning it from the back."

                        If the strings are within a step or so of the desired pitch I will leave the headstock tuners alone and only adjust the springs in the back until the strings and bridge are at equilibrium. Using something under the bridge to keep the bridge level (I use a big pencil eraser) until you're within the ballpark of the desired tuning helps.

                        Once the eraser falls out from the gap under the bridge, I adjust the spring claw until I'm at the desired tuning.

                        5) I used a Schaller instead of an OFR because a Schaller bridge is smaller front to back than an OFR and allows more room to intonate the strings for very low tunings. In terms of quality, it is the same as an OFR. What gives the Schaller an edge over the OFR is the removable knife edges that the OFR lacks.

                        6) Most of the time when I intonate I move the saddles all the way back, bring the strings to pitch, and then loosen the saddle screw very slowly until string tension pulls the saddle forward slightly. I tighten the saddle screw down, retune, recheck the intonation, and keep going this way until I am at the correct pitch. It is much easier this way than trying to move a string saddle back while under tension.

                        Even on a 25.5" guitar, though, there isn't quite enough room to intonate perfectly in Bb standard. I would consider this only a moderately low tuning by today's standards, but even then I have the saddles moved all the way back to the edge of the baseplate and they could still be moved back a bit for a bit better intonation.

                        My guess is from here better intonation means increasing scale length and changing frets like with the True Temperament tuning system found on high end Caparison guitars.

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                        • #27
                          You can avoid tightening the retainer if you lightly clamp the pads on the nut before tuning to pitch so that it keeps the strings in the bottom of the slot but allows for movement when turning the tuning peg. That way the strings wont go sharp when you tighten the pads properly because they are already forced to the bottom of the slots. Useful trick if you dont have a retainer.

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                          • #28
                            Thanks nexion218 . I thought a lighter clamp pressure would mean the strings would break at the tuning pegs when the bar is pulled sharp. This will be really useful to me as most of my import Jacksons lack a string retainer and have a pretty shallow headstock pitch from the nut.

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                            • #29
                              Edit: just realized you meant light pressure while tuning but not the final lockdown. Still, most of my guitars lack string retainers.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ICTGoober View Post

                                Is that the nut's fault? NO. An experienced and competent luthier will set up the nut to prevent binding - locking tuners or locking nuts withstanding. It's one of my specialties.
                                Why are you so confrontational? Doesn’t it get tiring being so angry and grumpy about everything?

                                Floyd style locknuts > goofy kahler string locks every time.

                                EVERY. TIME.
                                Last edited by formula73; 08-25-2022, 12:29 PM.

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