King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

[everdrone]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

found out about pharaoh supreme: http://www.blackartstoneworks.com/pharaoh-supreme/


ahhh!!! gas attack!!!

*sigh*

[Curly]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

found out about pharaoh supreme: http://www.blackartstoneworks.com/pharaoh-supreme/


ahhh!!! gas attack!!!

*sigh*

yeah, I saw that recently ... looks pretty cool!

I have an Earthquaker Hoof, and a Mojo Hand Colossus -- of those, I prefer the Colossus.
Of the ones I've built, about 10 or so, I kinda like a Mayo (built from docs that Skreddy posted online), and a Civil War. To be honest, I haven't built a dud. The reason I like Muffs is it's a circuit to study because of its long history, all the different versions, and how little things can affect the circuit.

[LReese]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

sweat equity = instant mojo.

This IMO is what a demo should be!!! ... short in length, and to the point. Shows what the unit sounds like rather than trying to impress with playing ability.

Keep it slow!

[jimijames]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

i appreciate the perspective but i'm still kinda meh about the whole thing.

if you want to go all DIY ethos on me you shouldn't copy the Pharaoh and call it the King Tut... That's not even trying. That's like saying "Man that Black Flag show was great. We should start a band called GRAY FLAG!" If it was "This is MY unique take with THESE unique features and I call it the THIS," that's DIY.

Whatever tho. As long as you make good music with it.

This is the circuit of the pharoh



This is the EHX Big Muff on which it's based:



Here's the schematics

Black Arts:



EHX:



Please look at these and tell me you realize what we're trying to say here. The guy took something that already existed and added a paint job and changed a few parts... I mean, really? He has the high moral ground? I'm all for someone making a living off of doing what they love but rocket science this ain't.

Like TGWIF said in a different thread... All you're really paying for is the ear of the person who sells the pedal. Nearly every pedal out there is like $20 in parts and nearly identical to designs from the 1970s. Don't be fooled into thinking the boutique builders are somehow toiling over design and component selection for years on end... At best it would take maybe a week for someone who knows what they're doing to test out all the different possible components for a circuit as simple as a fuzz.

[Curly]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

thanks jimijames for the post
for further comparison, here's Kit Rae's 47 Ram's Head schematic:

[Black Arts Mark]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

Hey Now!! I was directed here by a friend who thought I might have something to say about this…Well, I do. If there is one thing I have, it’s an opinion on anything…I’ll address a few things and then follow up. Get a beer, this might take awhile.

It's a lot cooler to buy a real Black Arts Pharaoh and give the guy who designed the circuit a reason to keep designing circuits than it is to buy a clone kit.

I appreciate the sentiment, and can’t disagree. But DIY clone kits are there for a good reason.

I appeciate your point.
I have a ton of pedals, and support good builders as much as I can. This wasn't from a 'clone kit', but from a DIY pcb project, and it's a one-off thing, totally acceptable for personal DIY purposes.
For the record, the Pharoah is a very cool pedal. However, it's a modded Big Muff Pie, with an expanded tone circuit based on Jack Orman's 'totally wonderful" circuit: http://www.muzique.com/lab/swtc3.htm.

lots of others have built a Pharoah from just a BMP circuit board, so really no rocket science here ... there's a whole industry out there of modded Muff pedals, as well as outright copies of the original circuit.

I think its awesome. DIY is great and encouraged.
It is a modded out muff, although I didn’t use the orman link you posted. I used the Duncan tonestack calculator to find away to make the tonestack fit my needs.
Certainly can build a “Pharaoh” on any muff pcb. I did it that way too for a time.

I think the word 'design' is a bit inexact here - more like 'tweak slightly' because the muff circuit is so simple. You wouldn't say the guy who paints a wall, or installs a window, 'designed' that wall, he's just switching it up some.

Agreed. I tweeked the muff to fit my needs. I liken it to a chef who takes a traditional dish, then applies his own recipe of spices to make it taste different. Certainly the same soup, but tastes different than another chef’s soup.

more pharaohs (and variations thereof) the merrier

cool stuff!

but ya any way to credit/pay black arts is cool

Thank You, and I agree. Pharaoh variations are great. A variation of a variation is yet another variation of an original no?

Wow, backlash on DIY all of a sudden. How many 1 knob fuzzes do i have to slightly eq tweak before im considered a boutique builder and immune to the circuit thief label? Ive got about 10 pedals worth of guts in a box, will that do er?
Oh wait, ill need to come up with a cool name and graphics too. Then itll be MY circuit and not a mishmash of original, uncopywrited material from the 60s and 70s and some electronic 101 tooling.
I know what ill do, ill put a 15 component fuzz circuit that i added a tone stack to and put it in a 1590bb box! GENIUSoh wait, D.A.M. already did it again and again.

That’s an angry way to look at it, but essentially correct. If there is a backlash against DIY, it’s not from me. I’m a DIYer from wayyy back.

hey guys,
thanks for all the comments!
I didn't expect to post a little clip on my favorite forum, and get knocked for 'not being cool' because I built a DIY pedal at home. It's not even boxed yet, so there's no suggestion on my part that I'm going into business and getting rich selling knock-offs .
It's a damn hobby!

Guitar is my passion, and I like to see what makes things tick, so over the years, I've built guitars, amps, and pedals. Lately I've been building pedals more, and I spend time over on madbean's foum. I think I've gotten a lot better at it lately. I've been learning Eagle CAD, tracing circuits and designing board layouts for pcb fabrication. A real learning experience in itself, but I enjoy that design part, and I already have a lot of CAD experience.

the guy who has probably written as much about Big Muffs as anyone, Kit Rae, has a page dedicated to builders 'inspired' by the Big Muff:

http://www.kitrae.net/music/Music_Muff%20Inspired%20Pedals%20and%20Clones.html

so, the list of those who make Muff copies and variations is long.
Are all those folks "not cool" for building copies?
I don't think so. Most of them do it because they love that circuit, and are inspired by the tone of artists who are notable for using a Muff.

The fact is, the vast majority of circuits are not patented, so once something's been reverse engineered, the cat's out of the bag.
So, copying a circuit that's not protected is not strictly illegal, and that is where the ethical question lies.

I think it's interesting that over on the Free Stomp Box Forum, part of their hobby is reverse engineering certain pedals, and tracing the circuit. They seem to take special pleasure in de-mystifying expensive boutique pedals, especially if they're covered in goop. It's kind of surprising how many gooped up pedals have turned out to be common circuits, or out of production circuits.
The fact is, much of the pedal business and boutique market is based on a very small handful of classic circuits.

At the same time, pedals are in a great phase, and there are a lot of very creative builders out there now: Catalinbread, Strymon, TC Electronics, and Zvex to name a few.

Anyway, that is my rant on ethics. It really is a subject deserving of its own thread.

I'll just add this: Electro Harmonix (who 'invented' the Big Muff), have just come out with the Soul Food -- their own Klon clone. It costs about $60, and everyone loves it. So what do you think of that?

Very good. +1 on these sentiments. I will add that when I heard the Pharaoh was on the Big Muff site, I gotta admit, I cracked an Ale and felt some gravitas.

build your own stuff if you want.
buy other people's stuff if you want.
play what you want.
play how you want.
there are no rules in art.

Bible.

i appreciate the perspective but i'm still kinda meh about the whole thing.

if you want to go all DIY ethos on me you shouldn't copy the Pharaoh and call it the King Tut... That's not even trying. That's like saying "Man that Black Flag show was great. We should start a band called GRAY FLAG!" If it was "This is MY unique take with THESE unique features and I call it the THIS," that's DIY.

Whatever tho. As long as you make good music with it.

I do see the point here, and yet again, maybe that’s a different discussion altogether.
One of my favorite bands right now is OFF, and Id have to say it’s a direct spur into the sides of Black Flag.
That said, I also look at it as a an honor to be copied in some fashion and kit really is a way of respecting the design. Now, if they would use the Pharaoh circuit and call something totally unrelated, that would feel weird. But King Tut implies its heritage and I like that. Am I reading the thread and between the lines correctly to assume that “Curly” is behind the King Tut?

found out about pharaoh supreme: http://www.blackartstoneworks.com/pharaoh-supreme/


ahhh!!! gas attack!!!

*sigh*

Thank You! That’s the obvious and final tweeks for the Pharaoh inspired by an aggregate of mods Ive done at customers request over the last few years.

This is the circuit of the pharoh



Black Arts:




Please look at these and tell me you realize what we're trying to say here. The guy took something that already existed and added a paint job and changed a few parts... I mean, really? He has the high moral ground? I'm all for someone making a living off of doing what they love but rocket science this ain't.

Indeed, and as some might notice, that Pharaoh, and actually about the first 125 or so of them was built on a generic GGG muff board. (with their blessing of course). It’s a long and weird story of which I wont bore anyone. But suffice to say that I NEVER thought anyone would want to buy my modified BMP. I gutted two broken black Russian muffs and tweeked them to my liking over a few months, made a recording w my band and people started asking me for one..SO, I searched out generic boards and the rest is history. I realized after a few months that the demand for this pedal was growing so I had my own board drafted out. I’ve never implied its something that its not, nor taken any moral high ground. If you know otherwise, show me. That’s a slightly angry reply, but hey, I like anger but not understanding it here.

Like TGWIF said in a different thread... All you're really paying for is the ear of the person who sells the pedal. Nearly every pedal out there is like $20 in parts and nearly identical to designs from the 1970s. Don't be fooled into thinking the boutique builders are somehow toiling over design and component selection for years on end... At best it would take maybe a week for someone who knows what they're doing to test out all the different possible components for a circuit as simple as a fuzz.

Truth. I’m being paid for parts, labor and the dumb expertise I have for being able to translate a good guitar sound into the circuit.

I’ll end it this way;
I have never thought this rocket science, taken for granted what I do, or ever taken for granted the people who buy my pedals. But equally, I have never been upset or anything about reverse engineers and/or DIYers. I thinks its an honor for someone to take their time, craftsmanship and money to build a tribute to one of my designs. That’s ****ing cool. Not everyone can or wants to take the time to build a pedal. For those who do, the DIY community is massive. For those who don’t, up sprang a cottage industry to fill those wants from guitar players. I started as DIYer by necessity because I was a broke ass guitar player playing a style of music that no one wanted to pay for. Broken equipment was a way of life. Learning to fix it was a way of survival. These are the roots of the Pharaoh. Necessity, not a mad scientist wringing his hands over trying to make a breakthrough. Just dirty rock and roll. So, **** yeah, DIY the **** out of everything.There are only so many ways to use a transistor and diodes to make distortion. Finding a way to make a new toy is encouraged and will hopefully be the way to make Rock music relevant again. Cool sounds, cool vibes and a DIY attitude of doing what we all love.

[Curly]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

Hey Mark,
I really appreciate your comments, and taking the time to respond!
Just to be clear about something, the King Tut isn't my project ... it's from rullywow.com, which is run by a friend of mine from the madbean's forum. He works for Siemens, but has a number of DIY projects on his site. I posted the link in my original post.

also, I think some of the anger you refer to in this thread may have been in my defense, if I've read them correctly. As I said, I didn't expect to get critized for posting my clip. This forum is filled with guys who mod guitars and amps, and my clip was in that spirit. I think maybe a part of any misunderstanding is the fact that this is not strictly a DIY pedal forum.

I started building pedals years ago, starting with Craig Anderton's book, and I've had lots of failures along the way, and a large pedal graveyard to show for it. I've also managed to buy a large pedal collection as well over the years. I love pedals! I also have learned respect for the guys who have succeeded in a pretty competitive business -- it ain't easy!

as you know, the Muff has a huge following, and there is practically a whole industry that's grown up around that circuit. I actually did not play one for years, since my favorite fuzz is a Tonebender, and I've bought and built quite a few of those.
When I got back into building pedals more a few years ago, I realized that the Muff was a great circuit to study; it's been around a long time, there's lots of documentation, and ... oh yeah, it sounds great!
Some of the guys on the DIY forum I hang out at have documented a lot of different versions, and done a spreadsheet comparing all the component values, etc.
It was out of that spirit and curiosity that lead me to build a pedal based on the Pharoah.

It's late, so I'm just gonna end by saying thanks again for your comments. In additional to building a great pedal, you have my admiration and respect for being a stand up guy.

[everdrone]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

More proof that Mark and Black Arts are pure awesomeness!!!

[jimijames]

King Tut demo (Pharoah clone)

Mark,

To begin thank you so much for taking the time to respond to the comments in this thread. It got lost in my subsequent posts but I am all for someone being able to sell pedals for a living - as a guitarist and a pedal geek I think nothing is cooler.

I took offense when emptypockets implied that curly was some kind of thief for using your design in a DIY pedal, or that his use of your circuit would undercut your ability to make pedals or earn a living.

I do apologize for my vitriolic tone but please understand I am very passionate about these things. Like Richard Stallman (amongst others) has said... Information wants to be free. I view circuit design the same way I see the GNU/Linux project. "Free" software doesn't mean you can't charge for it, or services related to it (just look at red hat or Ubuntu) but once you start locking up designs to distort a guitar signal bad things happen because there are only so many ways to distort a signal... The result is increasingly and unnecessarily complex mechanisms whose sole purpose is circumventing IP protections. That means pedal designers aren't free to make the best or coolest sounding pedal using tools that rightfully should be available to them. I think that's criminal and I stand steadfast against any attempt to patent, trademark, copyright, or otherwise pull any information whatsoever from the public domain. And I get upset when people say that any pedal design should never be copied because of some speculative harm that may befall this or that manufacturer. That's nothing against you, I just want people to have access to and experiment with all of these designs we've had access to for so long.

I probably said things which made it seem like I faulted you the designer for using an extant design, and that wasn't my intention. So long as you embrace the DIY hobbyist community you are a friend of mine.

[jon the art guy]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah circuit)

Mark you're a bretty gud guy and you make pedals with big hairy...tonez. My angry tone stemmed from some previous discussions on here which has sort of made me bitter on the subject. Please assume I was drunk or just a jerk but also firmly in support of boutique builders in search of tonal equality for all.

[Black Arts Mark]

Re: King Tut demo (Pharoah circuit)

Hey Mark,
I really appreciate your comments, and taking the time to respond!
Just to be clear about something, the King Tut isn't my project ... it's from rullywow.com, which is run by a friend of mine from the madbean's forum. He works for Siemens, but has a number of DIY projects on his site. I posted the link in my original post.

also, I think some of the anger you refer to in this thread may have been in my defense, if I've read them correctly. As I said, I didn't expect to get critized for posting my clip. This forum is filled with guys who mod guitars and amps, and my clip was in that spirit. I think maybe a part of any misunderstanding is the fact that this is not strictly a DIY pedal forum.

I started building pedals years ago, starting with Craig Anderton's book, and I've had lots of failures along the way, and a large pedal graveyard to show for it. I've also managed to buy a large pedal collection as well over the years. I love pedals! I also have learned respect for the guys who have succeeded in a pretty competitive business -- it ain't easy!

as you know, the Muff has a huge following, and there is practically a whole industry that's grown up around that circuit. I actually did not play one for years, since my favorite fuzz is a Tonebender, and I've bought and built quite a few of those.
When I got back into building pedals more a few years ago, I realized that the Muff was a great circuit to study; it's been around a long time, there's lots of documentation, and ... oh yeah, it sounds great!
Some of the guys on the DIY forum I hang out at have documented a lot of different versions, and done a spreadsheet comparing all the component values, etc.
It was out of that spirit and curiosity that lead me to build a pedal based on the Pharoah.

It's late, so I'm just gonna end by saying thanks again for your comments. In additional to building a great pedal, you have my admiration and respect for being a stand up guy.

Hi Curly Thanks man. Likewise, I appreciate that you took the time to read through my longwinded post. Tell your friend that I think his Tut is great and I support it fully.
As being a newb on this forum, youre right, I don’t really know the vibe or protocol here. I liked the clip, and again, I condone all activity in any form of DIY realms.
I read the Anderton book obsessively as a teenage mutant who would scour the local library for interesting stuff to read. That book was taken home too many times to remember and read cover to cover. However, I did not do any projects out of it at that time. Just gleaned every bit of knowledge I could.
I can certainly relate to your love of the muff. I love the muff too!
Thanks for the nice words, it means a lot to me.

More proof that Mark and Black Arts are pure awesomeness!!!

Aww shucks. Thank You.

Mark,

To begin thank you so much for taking the time to respond to the comments in this thread. It got lost in my subsequent posts but I am all for someone being able to sell pedals for a living - as a guitarist and a pedal geek I think nothing is cooler.

I took offense when emptypockets implied that curly was some kind of thief for using your design in a DIY pedal, or that his use of your circuit would undercut your ability to make pedals or earn a living.

I do apologize for my vitriolic tone but please understand I am very passionate about these things. Like Richard Stallman (amongst others) has said... Information wants to be free. I view circuit design the same way I see the GNU/Linux project. "Free" software doesn't mean you can't charge for it, or services related to it (just look at red hat or Ubuntu) but once you start locking up designs to distort a guitar signal bad things happen because there are only so many ways to distort a signal... The result is increasingly and unnecessarily complex mechanisms whose sole purpose is circumventing IP protections. That means pedal designers aren't free to make the best or coolest sounding pedal using tools that rightfully should be available to them. I think that's criminal and I stand steadfast against any attempt to patent, trademark, copyright, or otherwise pull any information whatsoever from the public domain. And I get upset when people say that any pedal design should never be copied because of some speculative harm that may befall this or that manufacturer. That's nothing against you, I just want people to have access to and experiment with all of these designs we've had access to for so long.

I probably said things which made it seem like I faulted you the designer for using an extant design, and that wasn't my intention. So long as you embrace the DIY hobbyist community you are a friend of mine.

JJ, thank you man. I stand shoulder to shoulder with your spirit and couldn’t agree more. Clarification to benefit my understanding is much appreciated and I’m grateful for your support.

Mark you're a bretty gud guy and you make pedals with big hairy...tonez. My angry tone stemmed from some previous discussions on here which has sort of made me bitter on the subject. Please assume I was drunk or just a jerk but also firmly in support of boutique builders in search of tonal equality for all.

Jon, thank you man. I took no offense at all by any of this. I didn’t understand the emotions because I wasn’t privy to all of the prior conversations on the related subjects. I fully endorse drunkenness and jerky jagoff behavior. ( not that you were, but I myself am quite guilty quite often.) I am a professional pedal builder, but an EXPERT drinker. Some days, not sure which I like better.

I really appreciate the open arms here, and the quality of character. I don’t have much time for EVEN MORE internet stuff, but I have this forum book marked under “cool places to hang”. … I must confess righ now, I don’t have any Duncan pickups in anything..