I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

[Aceman]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Obviously in this country the rich seem to be quite stupid, irony I suppose, those of use who had to climb and roll back down the mountain a few times appreciate things and have hopefully learned from life's experiences. Those that have been handed everything seldom appreciate it. As long as I have been playing I am not about to play a $8-9K guitar, the very idea freaks me out really, something happening to it gives me a sense of paranoia I cannot handle, but likewise I am not going to waste my time with a poor sounding and bad quality instrument.

Wow….

I am not rich.
I am absolutely not stupid
And unlike you - I have the balls to take Christine (Ace Frehley Aged Budokan #16) out on stage next Friday night.

I bet I could blind sound test you and you couldn't tell a Joyo US Dream from A Suhr riot, or an Ibanez $300 Import from Steve Via's personal handmade US axe.

[GuitarFanatic]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I was in a 1:1 songwriting and recording lesson, and just for funsies I took my pedalboard with me to experiment, and the guy giving me the lesson complimented the way I had placed the effecfs, and he said it was a very versatile and effective board for a small one


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[loversmoon]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Ive never been the cork sniffer type of guitar player. I've seen vids of famous guitarist pick up cheap gear and sound amazing. I cut my teeth on boss pedals and I would never bash someone's gear. My fellow guitarist in our band runs a few cheap pedals with a few high end and sounds awesome. I say go through whatever you need to find "your" tone. If it's a row of joyo pedals then so be it. If it sounds good to you then rock it. I agree with what most everyone here has said before me. Most people can't tell the difference in the tone anyways. As long as you don't sound like Someone is killin a cat with your guitar then you're in the right path. Bahahah. But seriously, I love high end stuff as well as low end and everything's in between. I do prefer a combo amp because it suits my needs. I have no real reason to play thru a 100 watt head and a 4 12. But that's just me ya know. We play smaller venues and private party's and the combo works. Heck I've even considered down sizing to a 30 watt. Currently I play through a cheap solid state 75 watt Randall yet I have an expensive Protone haunted delay pedal... Yet it works for me. I think people do tend to get way too serious about gear. Just find your tone, be happy with and be one with your tone. Play well with others. Don't bash gear. We are all here because we share the love of music.

[Gainstage]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I agree with that. Dismissing a pedal because of its low price point is a mistake. Look at Visual Sound / TrueTone's Garage Tone series as a good example. Most of that line is now discontinued and whatever is left is on its way out. They were very good pedals and priced around $50 US. They flopped because many potential buyers assumed they were crap because if the low price point. But I see many people who have bought them placing them right along side some very expensive pedals.


Low pricing does not always mean it's crap. Sometimes it's just a good deal. But if you exclude lower priced pedals from your gear search without at least trying them, you could be missing out.

An acquaintance of mine mentioned several years ago that when he tries gear, he doesn't even look at the prices until he's tried everything that caught his eye and decided what he likes. If the piece he likes most is more than he has; he either saves up until he can afford it or he checks the price of his other choices working his way back until he finds something he's satisfied with that fits his budget. One time he ended up with a Squire Strat he preferred over some MIM and USA strats... His first choice was a USA Strat that was out of his budget, his second choice was about $800 below his budget... An American Standard was his #3.

You know having a engineering background I tend to look at things from just more than a ear or sensory perception sort of thing. Restating the simple fact, a talented player playing "anything" can make it sound good, so judgments based on the "newness facade" seldom hold. I mean if you find something that is just $30, has a wide range of versatile adjust, low noise, fidelity buffering or bypass then by all means, do tell. I usually run through everything a pedal has to offer in a couple weeks, if they do well they survive being replaced and personally I do not care what they cost. I have returned several $300 pedals as they just did not live up to the hype.

To clarify a basic premise in the gear realm, one plays what one can afford and progression is a normal development of just about anything. I started using Boss stuff centuries ago and while I do think the Waza stuff is pretty good, there are just some lines and gear stuff I just do not care to revisit. Now that being said some new things turn my head indeed but to merely buy cheap for cheap's sake or expensive for expensive sake is lacking the all prevalent axiom of "bang for the buck".
I like to think there is a happy medium and that is usually where I end up. I do not need and do not want a Les Paul costing 8-9K nothing is going to convince me it "sounds" 3x better than the ones I have. I am sure I could rip through a $30 pedal and make something out of it, who could not given they can play in the first place.
Problem I always run into with low priced stuff is they are noisy on my rig, have a lack of tone range, degrade my signal, or breakup when hit normally.
Should one settle for cheap cables as decent ones might cost a little more and yes there is a difference.
I mean we have players out there who consider impedance distortion, tracking glitch, tone loss and ground loop hum part of the "tone". So really it would seem what one hears and likes can make another wretch.
If you can have what you want even by saving up a little then it seems choices are more to a persons individual choice and taste. Some have poor taste on many levels. Just because I would rather drive a Mercedes than a Ford Fiesta does not make me a bad person, I don't know, maybe it makes me a better one. I had my times of being broke and not being able to buy anything, I do not miss those times. Progression is the way of life, I play better than I did years past and my gear constantly keeps changing towards a higher end. Should I drop that and play a cheap guitar, low priced pedals and super cheap cables and batteries again? Why? I like where things are going, I would probably quit playing if it were not for something cool i just got. Gear is what makes the guitar fun for me, take that away and the guitar is pointless for me.
Some cats like little tiny pedals and low priced stuff, have at it. If you have been playing for a number of years and just use what you started with and keep buying the same then it would seem to be arrested development.

[ThisDyingSoul76]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

It's a mistake to think that a $30 pedal is inherently going to suck. One of my favorite overdrives is the Joyo Sweet Baby that I paid $28 for. It didn't leave my board for almost 4 years of regular gigging. I only took it off when I got my new amp and an Archer. It was, and still is, a great sounding pedal. I still use it with my Twin and my Cube for lap steel.

I agree with that. Dismissing a pedal because of its low price point is a mistake. Look at Visual Sound / TrueTone's Garage Tone series as a good example. Most of that line is now discontinued and whatever is left is on its way out. They were very good pedals and priced around $50 US. They flopped because many potential buyers assumed they were crap because if the low price point. But I see many people who have bought them placing them right along side some very expensive pedals.


Low pricing does not always mean it's crap. Sometimes it's just a good deal. But if you exclude lower priced pedals from your gear search without at least trying them, you could be missing out.

An acquaintance of mine mentioned several years ago that when he tries gear, he doesn't even look at the prices until he's tried everything that caught his eye and decided what he likes. If the piece he likes most is more than he has; he either saves up until he can afford it or he checks the price of his other choices working his way back until he finds something he's satisfied with that fits his budget. One time he ended up with a Squire Strat he preferred over some MIM and USA strats... His first choice was a USA Strat that was out of his budget, his second choice was about $800 below his budget... An American Standard was his #3.

[BriGuy1968]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

This is evolving into the usual argument we've seen many times here.

If the less expensive versions are entirely as good as the much higher-priced versions, the latter would end up disappearing or having to drop their prices to the levels of the more economical versions. A classic area for this is the audiophile world.

The key phrase is probably 'diminishing returns'.

One can get close to the ideal for a reasonable cost. Many don't hear the differences so they are happy to get 85-90% of the way for a modest budget, and they are perfectly happy. But it's that last ten per cent that can cost serious money, and if you hear the differences, you won't be happy until you can make inroads into that last small percentage.

Indeed there are some people who will pay serious money simply to have an impressive brand-name attached to an item. But I'm not talking about those types. Some people will pay serious money to an unknown maker if they feel they are getting that last few per cent of quality that they seek.

There's no point in getting defensive about any of it. If you can find what you consider perfection or close to it for not much money, that's great, and you are lucky. If you can see/ hear/ feel/ sense some finer details that will cost a lot more money to attain, it's your choice as to whether you pursue that or not ... the quality you seek is out there somewhere.

So it's all good for everyone, even those who want champagne on a beer budget (stop drinking beer for a little while, save the money and quite quickly you'll be able to afford the champagne you seek).

At least nowdays some very fine instruments and equipment are available to the lower budget ... it hasn't always been that way. We should celebrate more than we snipe and gripe about it. Everybody is well-catered for nowdays. And most of all, becoming musician-ly is still up to the individual and the effort they put in, that has never changed throughout history.

Well said!

The word "value" comes to mind, which basically is our way (as humans) of saying "worth the price."

But value is not a constant from one person to the next, so no one can be right or wrong about it... just right or wrong for THEM!


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[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

They (the crazy expensive guitars) won't be going anywhere, because there will always be people to buy them with fat wallets who value the name on the headstock and the fact that they are what they are & cost what they do way more than the actual instrument itself.

As far as "diminishing returns" go...the point it is they diminish to zero & then carry on into minus'ville. They don't stop short at 85-90%. ..ie..there's a point after which you're paying for a name and "nothing" else...so every extra $ you pay is your loss in terms of actual fiscal value without "any" returns/benefit other than the joy of beholding what's written on your headstock.

And since you mentioned audiophiles & their OCD..well even in their case everything's subjective. One guy hears too much top end the other guy feels it's lacking..one loves the depth of the soundstage the other guy says it's too shallow ...one want's to hang his stereo from the ceiling for more "airiness" The other prefers it down on terra firma with a titanium slab plonked on top for more "weight" and so on..it's just their differing perception ..not any actual reality.

I don't seek champagne ...all I seek is beer (and have been blessed to have found/downed quite a lot of it too so far)

Yes, in the old (pre-CNC) days ...cheap instruments were often badly made ill-put together shoddy crap (I owned an 80's Korean Warlock that chugged like a champ...but that was really all it did well...the lead tone was horrendous...the fret-ends shredded my fingers, it NEVER stayed in tune & the neck pocket route was a swimming pool) ..things have changed a hell of a lot since then though..so yes, there's nothing to gripe about

[crusty philtrum]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

This is evolving into the usual argument we've seen many times here.

If the less expensive versions are entirely as good as the much higher-priced versions, the latter would end up disappearing or having to drop their prices to the levels of the more economical versions. A classic area for this is the audiophile world.

The key phrase is probably 'diminishing returns'.

One can get close to the ideal for a reasonable cost. Many don't hear the differences so they are happy to get 85-90% of the way for a modest budget, and they are perfectly happy. But it's that last ten per cent that can cost serious money, and if you hear the differences, you won't be happy until you can make inroads into that last small percentage.

Indeed there are some people who will pay serious money simply to have an impressive brand-name attached to an item. But I'm not talking about those types. Some people will pay serious money to an unknown maker if they feel they are getting that last few per cent of quality that they seek.

There's no point in getting defensive about any of it. If you can find what you consider perfection or close to it for not much money, that's great, and you are lucky. If you can see/ hear/ feel/ sense some finer details that will cost a lot more money to attain, it's your choice as to whether you pursue that or not ... the quality you seek is out there somewhere.

So it's all good for everyone, even those who want champagne on a beer budget (stop drinking beer for a little while, save the money and quite quickly you'll be able to afford the champagne you seek).

At least nowdays some very fine instruments and equipment are available to the lower budget ... it hasn't always been that way. We should celebrate more than we snipe and gripe about it. Everybody is well-catered for nowdays. And most of all, becoming musician-ly is still up to the individual and the effort they put in, that has never changed throughout history.

[ThisDyingSoul76]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I truly believe that Cort and some other Asian factories really can produce a top quality guitar. Their prices are cheaper because labor is cheaper and QA is not as strict. You may have to go through a lot of guitars to find the one that's equal to a good Gibson or Fender or PRS; but if you are patient and try enough examples, eventually you will find one.

That said, I got my Gibsons and Fenders because when I tried them out, they felt great and sounded great and the search for a guitar was quick and easy.

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

haha, yeah..but in all fairness...these guys are running businesses not charities. They're in it for the money/profit ...bottom line, just like any business. As long as people buy they will manufacture & sell. It's fair enough..everyone's happy. I could'nt care less lol...just don't run my stuff down 'cause it costs less (the truth is ...it could well sound a whole lot better than your's )

But the thing to understand is there's a point beyond which it's all about brand-value & nothing else. In my estimation that's around the $1250-1500 mark. NO guitar will actually cost more to make unless it's gold-plated/jewel studded or something. You can have BKP's an OFR, a hell of a finish and all the other knick-knacks figured into that price. I personally stick between the $400-$800 mark because I think it represents the max fair value after upgrades. The 5k+ guitar's don't really offer any tangible features/jump in quality that the (max) 1.5k+ guitar's don't have. For that price they could figure in titanium Floyds and stuff but they almost never do...it's just profit after that...

Which brings us back to "no one's making guitar's for Charity"

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Well..$500,000,000,000,000,000 is'nt expensive for some blank black canvas masterpieces of the art world that reveal themselves in the right light

There's a point at which you're paying extra for nothing. Got nothing against expensive gear per say....but there's a point beyond which it's just a rip-off.

As for (cheap lol) acoustics & piano's costing that much...yet another good reason for me not to play them

This is definitely true. And I think when we talk about 'paying extra for nothing' we kinda allude to Gibson and Fender, and some boo-teek stuff like Tommy Anderson and Johnnie Suhr. But I think these guys are trying to dictate the market that their stuff is really worth thousands of dollars. Really? Come on. At the end of the day, guitars are just wood, magnet and wires. Maybe they pay their so-called 'Masterbuilder' thousands of dollars but seriously, do we believe that a Cort factory in Indonesia using CNC machine and cheap labor lack the capability to match a 5K PRS?

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Haha I used to play drums and bass, plus the guitar when I was young...
I miss having a piano though.

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Yeah but my interest in playing begins and ends with the electric guitar ...can't help it

I've been trying to talk myself into the idea of playing Bass for years ..but I just can't get myself to buy one

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Well it is also a whole different world

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Well..$500,000,000,000,000,000 is'nt expensive for some blank black canvas masterpieces of the art world that reveal themselves in the right light

There's a point at which you're paying extra for nothing. Got nothing against expensive gear per say....but there's a point beyond which it's just a rip-off.

As for (cheap lol) acoustics & piano's costing that much...yet another good reason for me not to play them