I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

8k ain't expensive for some acoustic stuff, the electric guitar world is cheap per defenition as it is the common mans world.(relativly hehe)
If you play piano, woodwinds, string instruments etc etc you pay amounts that make you all bleach out

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

And yet what are the odds the shoe is on the other foot? Usually a person who establishes a fairly costly rig has taken some years to attain and develop a sense of technical expertise a neophyte cannot manifest. You can play to the limitations of your gear or play to the limitations of your imagination.
We are not speaking of persons who have vast resources and buy things beyond their range of ability, I think that would be the extreme rare exception. Most I have seen over the years have slowly grown in their quality of gear and abilities. I have never heard of anyone going out and spending $8K on a '59 Les Paul who could not play.

Does one play well and improve because of their gear or in spite of it?
I am a firm believer in using whatever you like or can afford and make the best of it. I did it all my life, now that I can afford things I only dreamed I could ever have, I am now expected to use $30 pedals and untunable guitars? ?

The notion nice things are a waste of money can only be a mindset of those who have nothing.
Interesting axiom:"Money cannot buy you happiness." Daniel Tosh, "Really, do you live in America?"

I said you can sound like **** with expensive gear (true story) ...just as you can with cheap. Gear does'nt make the player, much as some might like to believe it (and often do). If you've arrived & can afford good gear...good for you. The truth is there are as many out there who improve in spite of their gear as there are who improve because of it, just as there's no shortage of neophytes out there with high end gear that they could'nt play to save their dying grandma's

Yes, I'd never buy an 8k guitar, just like I would'nt buy a diamond encrusted iPhone or a totally blank black canvas masterpiece that "reveals itself in the right light" for $500,000,000,000,000,000 . That's because I'm a firm believer in the law of diminishing returns & don't necessarily believe an 8k guitar = happiness + untold talent.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I think at times, belligerent attitude toward certain brands is warranted. Why? Cause everyone agrees it's crap. Behringer is the perfect example of this. About 7-8 years ago nobody took it seriously. Most of its stuff is copy of renowned industry standards, from pedals to preamps to rack effects to DI box to mixers, you can find just about anything in its lineup. It actually has a Sonic Maximizer and Sonic Exciter copy with cheesy word-play like 'Sonic Ultramizer'.

Although some of the stuff like the plastic stompboxes and Sans Amp clone is quite decent for casual players and students, nobody with a profession in the music industry ever laid fingers on Behringer. And it's true. I used to have a mic preamp very2 cheap. After around 1.5 months the LEDs went wrong. I couldn't return it for an exchange cause it was more than 30 days already (what a perfect timing eh? lol...).

Now I want to continue to BBE Sonic Maximizer. This thing is - regardless of the technical explanation provided by BBE - is just a 2-band EQ. It just kills your sound. Be my guess, search everywhere and the general consensus is Sonic Maximizer is tone killer. I am talking from personal experience.

[Matt42]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

It's a mistake to think that a $30 pedal is inherently going to suck. One of my favorite overdrives is the Joyo Sweet Baby that I paid $28 for. It didn't leave my board for almost 4 years of regular gigging. I only took it off when I got my new amp and an Archer. It was, and still is, a great sounding pedal. I still use it with my Twin and my Cube for lap steel.

[Gainstage]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

lol. I have quite a few students in exactly that category.

on a side note...what is it about Gibsons and blues lawyers?

Obviously in this country the rich seem to be quite stupid, irony I suppose, those of use who had to climb and roll back down the mountain a few times appreciate things and have hopefully learned from life's experiences. Those that have been handed everything seldom appreciate it. As long as I have been playing I am not about to play a $8-9K guitar, the very idea freaks me out really, something happening to it gives me a sense of paranoia I cannot handle, but likewise I am not going to waste my time with a poor sounding and bad quality instrument. (Lawyers have always sucked, the notion if they play guitar does not save them. Most I have had the misfortune of doing business seemed like idiots who stayed in school for so long they ended up with a degree. They seemed to be worse criminals and lairs than their clients.) I do not buy super expensive stuff or get anything because it cost a lot but I am also not screwing around with a $30 pedal I know cannot meet my expectations. Can I make decent sounds out of it, sure, I picked up my kids guitar and cheesy little amp once and my ex told me I made that even sound good. So I should use that crappy stuff, not when I know how much better quality sounds.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Where does the OP live? I wasn't even aware that the current trend (at least from his observation) is 1x12 combos and cheapo guitar. Around here (and I live in less fortunate place than most of you), high-end tube combos, half stack, full stack, Line 6 POD rack, HD500 floor effect, expensive Prestiges and AVRI and Japanese Strats and TCE pedals are not uncommon. 2x12 is hard to find? I myself use a 2x12 Laney and I don't even play live.

[Darg1911]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

One of my friends considers himself a very poor player (he's better than he gives himself credit for), but he has a $3000 PRS, a $1500 Dr Z amp, and a pedal collection that would put a lot of much much better players' boards to shame. He can afford it, so he figures he might as well buy nice stuff.

Expensive gear doesn't mean you are a skilled guitar player, it just means you draw a decent paycheck and can afford it.

I don't mind cheap stuff, but I've been endevoring to replace my cheaper Chinese clones with higher quality stuff. The only one I haven't dropped off of my board yet is the Mooer Trellicopter, and that's because it's the best Trem I've played, regardless of being a Chinese clone.

I don't have any real high end stuff. I do have a few "boutique" pedals. My most expensive guitar sells for around $1600 (I didn't pay that much). I have had a few more expensive guitars (LP Standards). I have a couple of older amps that weren't exactly cheap. I have some import stuff and some North American stuff. I consider myself a hack of a player now (have some nerve and hand problems) but I've never been a great player, or even a "good" player for that matter. I'm not rich either.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having nicer stuff if you can afford it. Even if I could easily afford it, personally I would not buy an 8K Les Paul. I would see it as kind of a waste. But I wouldn't judge another "hack" of a player like myself for buying one if he could afford it and if that's what he wants. And I don't look down on people who own inexpensive/budget stuff either, whether they can afford better or not.

It's "your" money, do whatever makes you happy.

[Dave Locher]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I have expensive %$#%$#ing gear like a REAL Rat, a Diaz Pedal, a T-Rex Viper, an $8k Les Paul custom shop. I have cheap @$$ gear. $50 repainted Dean Vendettas and a Behringer Phaser. I have cheap stuff I paid a lot for, and expensive stuff I bought cheap. I will always say (and have posted this today even…):

If it feels good, and sounds good, it IS good.

I will absolutely bash Boutique stuff - especially when it is portrayed as the ONLY way to get "that" tone, or that it is "necessary" for this sound or whatever. I have played too long and too much stuff to know that there are so many ways to get a sound, and that for the most part (but not always….) there is usually a way to get that sound without 3 or 5 $3200+ pedals.

And I have heard and seen more than enough live bands and what they were playing to know it can be done with common tools if you know what you are doing, and that as mentioned, if you don't, no amount of spending can save you from sounding like $h!t.

Great thread mantis.

Amen, dude! I have seen hundreds of bands in clubs, bars, and mid-size venues where you really hear the instruments and can stand right in front of the amp if you want to. The best sounds I ever heard often used the same equipment as the "bleh" ones. The difference was in the hands (playing) and ears (adjustments to gear).
The really bad live sounds tended to come from complicated setups with too many effects, rack and/or stomp boxes. And plenty of those guys had the latest, greatest Big Name equipment. So there are definitely crap players out there with big money, big name equipment and some very good players with mid-range stuff. Although, to grant gainstage one small point, I have never seen a really good musician with really lousy equipment either. But I think the low end of the "acceptable" range is a lot lower than he seems to believe. Look at touring pro boards and you will see Boss, Ibanez, and sometimes DOD pedals, often alongside something much more expensive.

[Matt42]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

lol. I have quite a few students in exactly that category.

on a side note...what is it about Gibsons and blues lawyers?

One of my friends considers himself a very poor player (he's better than he gives himself credit for), but he has a $3000 PRS, a $1500 Dr Z amp, and a pedal collection that would put a lot of much much better players' boards to shame. He can afford it, so he figures he might as well buy nice stuff.

Expensive gear doesn't mean you are a skilled guitar player, it just means you draw a decent paycheck and can afford it.

I don't mind cheap stuff, but I've been endevoring to replace my cheaper Chinese clones with higher quality stuff. The only one I haven't dropped off of my board yet is the Mooer Trellicopter, and that's because it's the best Trem I've played, regardless of being a Chinese clone.

[Aceman]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

Yep - I play the amp distortion on two channels.

The rest is delays, chorus, and flange for flavor - when appropriate.

[BriGuy1968]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

For some music, the contribution of the pedals IS the sound. You gotta have 'em, even if they hiss like a pit of snakes and set your unpotted pickup covers squealing every time that you stop producing notes.

Much of the time, the pedals are unnecessary.

+1. Gotta keep in mind too that the cool sound you just discovered may or may not fit into the mix. Can't tell you how many times I've thought I hit the perfect sound for a song when playing at home and then ended up going back to no effects when I tried it at band practice.

My band plays classic rock covers, and I try to only add effects if I can hear them in the original.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

If it feels good, and sounds good, it IS good.

This but with my usual qualifier that the pedal has to add more than it subtracts.

For some music, the contribution of the pedals IS the sound. You gotta have 'em, even if they hiss like a pit of snakes and set your unpotted pickup covers squealing every time that you stop producing notes.

Much of the time, the pedals are unnecessary.

One of my all-time favourite processors is the Roland Dimension D / BOSS Dimension C (and all good clones). If none of the push button permuatations is right for the song you are about to play, the song probably doesn't really need chorus anyhow.

[Aceman]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I have expensive %$#%$#ing gear like a REAL Rat, a Diaz Pedal, a T-Rex Viper, an $8k Les Paul custom shop. I have cheap @$$ gear. $50 repainted Dean Vendettas and a Behringer Phaser. I have cheap stuff I paid a lot for, and expensive stuff I bought cheap. I will always say (and have posted this today even…):

If it feels good, and sounds good, it IS good.

I will absolutely bash Boutique stuff - especially when it is portrayed as the ONLY way to get "that" tone, or that it is "necessary" for this sound or whatever. I have played too long and too much stuff to know that there are so many ways to get a sound, and that for the most part (but not always….) there is usually a way to get that sound without 3 or 5 $3200+ pedals.

And I have heard and seen more than enough live bands and what they were playing to know it can be done with common tools if you know what you are doing, and that as mentioned, if you don't, no amount of spending can save you from sounding like $h!t.

Great thread mantis.

[devastone]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

I do not really get at all how such simple things get so misunderstood and confused as to what was said and what was never said.
Personally I do not give a flying **** what anyone uses. If you like whatever you like have at it. Whether or not someone puts down high end gear or whatever is of no value at all.

It's statements like this that add to the misunderstanding and confusion

"What a Boss board this is.
I can think of a million other better pedals without a crappy set of buffers to boot.
If you're a good player I have no doubt the worst pedal can be used somewhat effectively. What is the deal with low budget stuff all the time is there some sort of problem with a serious quality pedal that might cost a little money?? At least maybe a Waza upgrade over the old style. Boss???"

As an engineer, I can say that guitar players are just below audiophiles on the snake oil scale. Yes, sometimes "boutique" or "expensive" is better, sometimes it is just different, often times it has many of the same components. I can speak from experience, I built pedals about 20 years ago and sold quite a few of them, and honestly, it was a stupid simple copy of an old circuit with a few simple mods, but people liked it. At that time it was pretty much just Mike Fuller and me for small boutique pedals at the local "high end" music store.

Here's the deal with small "boutique" companies. They are small, the same parts cost them more because they can't buy in the same quantities that big companies can. Labor costs them a lot more, it takes a guy probably 10X the time to hand solder a PCB as an automated machine to pick, place, and solder components, the time goes way up if he has to add flying leads. Not to mention, the time to lay out a PCB and get them made, again the quantities are much smaller so they cost him a lot more per board. So, from the start, the small company has to charge 3 - 4 times more to build say, a Tube Screamer (or SD-1, whatever) clone. Sure, there are some changes to the circuit to make it better, or more appropriately different. For the TS, some get rid of the mid boost and call it better, but actually that depends on the user, do you like the mid boost? Boss, Ibanez, etc... already have an infrastructure in place to make and stuff their own PCBs, automation to stuff and solder, not to mention enclosures, painting, etc... the cost is going to be a lot less. As for the Chinese clones, same idea, they usually use the exact same components as the pedals they are cloning and they have access to even cheaper labor and automation.

That said, there are very few truly original overdrive, distortion, fuzz designs out there today, most are just tweaks of components of a few basic topologies.

I'm sure Nils can add or subtract more here, but the point is that if you buy the same exact circuit from a big manufacturer or a small garage shop, the cost of components and labor from the garage shop is already probably 10X or more higher than the large manufacturer so his pedal has to cost much more, fortunately his overhead us probably much less so he can often cut his margin down so that his pedal only costs 2 - 4 times as much as the big guys.

Just a point of reference...

[mantis]

Re: I have a few words about brands and people who judge them.

And yet what are the odds the shoe is on the other foot? Usually a person who establishes a fairly costly rig has taken some years to attain and develop a sense of technical expertise a neophyte cannot manifest. You can play to the limitations of your gear or play to the limitations of your imagination.
We are not speaking of persons who have vast resources and buy things beyond their range of ability, I think that would be the extreme rare exception. Most I have seen over the years have slowly grown in their quality of gear and abilities. I have never heard of anyone going out and spending $8K on a '59 Les Paul who could not play.

Does one play well and improve because of their gear or in spite of it?
I am a firm believer in using whatever you like or can afford and make the best of it. I did it all my life, now that I can afford things I only dreamed I could ever have, I am now expected to use $30 pedals and untunable guitars? ?

The notion nice things are a waste of money can only be a mindset of those who have nothing.
Interesting axiom:"Money cannot buy you happiness." Daniel Tosh, "Really, do you live in America?"
As always, "do not hate me because I am pretty".

I've been playing guitar since 1979. I really never owned so called cheap gear. Even as a beginner I started out on a 1970 American Fender Strat and Fender Champ amp and went right into a Fender Twin and a Gibson Les Paul in less then 3 years in.
Since I started at a higher level then maybe most, I'm completely annoyed with cheap or entry level guitars , amps and effects. For me I can't use them to create my music. I can't even stand higher end amps with crappy to me clean channels. I judge them all on the clean compared to a Fender Twin. Thats my standard and I know it's a vey high clean channel standard as anyone could argue the Twin reverb is the cleanest sounding amp in the world bare NONE.
Back in 2006 I purchased a Krank Distortion pedal to put in front of my Twin reverb. This was a new one P purchased in 2005 reissue. I went around the block in amps and always go back to the twin even though I'm a metal guy. I never can find a amp I like it's cleans and have a killer drive channel or channels. I really liked the Peavy 5150 Drive channel , Mesa Boogie and a Bogner that I played but the cleans always come up short and I get so annoyed. I can't have my cleans sound like someone put a plastic bag over the amp and muddied up everything. The Krank pedal led me to their amps and I found my sound in the Krank Revolution 1 . it had a very close to the Fendr Twin Clean more like the Bassman 10 I owned at one point that is just a slight darker tone then the Twin but same clarity and head room and it had this monstrous drive channel they call the Krank channel. That pedal was the best pedal I have ever heard for a Distortion pedal in my life and I owned plenty and the amp was everything it was and more.
Then I joined some forums and started to learn about how Krank went into some of them and made fake reviews to sell their amps. I think that sucked and didn't like the business practice at all. People in those forums hated on the product saying how much it sucked , sounded like ass and all these other hateful things about the products which most of them never plugged into one and the ones that did just clowned it as everything else on the market was better.
As much as I hated what the company did, they still put out an unbelievable product. I still own mine today and I judge all amps to it. Nothing that I have plugged into sound as good or better.
As a musician and a huge tone chaser, I constantly look. What I have been looking for now as my tastes and needs have changed a bit is a 3 channel amp that has a Fender like clean, a classic rock like Crunch and a Krank like high gain channel. For the last few years I walked away from every single thing I plugged into. I've been up and down the Blackstar line and I haven't plugged into the Series one heads except the 45 watt combo ( No one has them on the floor which is completely frustrating) and there is not enough for me there yet. Once I plug into the Series one 1046L6 I'll know if it's right for me or not.
My last adventure to a use to be a very high end shop now is just average to maybe slightly above average as they carry some Mesa on the floor in damn combos etc is Russo's music in Trenton NJ. They had Krank, Bogner , High end Marshall, etc on the floor so you could try them out. Today they barely have any amps unless it's one of these stupid to me Micro things. I'm so out on them.
Anyway I went there for 2 reasons, one they are now back to carrying Charvel guitars which is my personal favorite and they had the Blackstar series one 45 watt combo on the floor so I could finally plug into one and hear it go.
I thought it was the best sounding amp on the floor but no where near what I want or even close to as good as my Krank. The sales man who was very cool and very helpful guided me around the amps and I plugged into many of them and didn't like anything. I even questioned one of the mesa Boogie 1x12 combos if it was broken. He took offense to that as he thought while I as playing it sounded incredible. I was making comments the whole time I was there basically bashing everything.
When it was all said and done he made a comment to me that got me thinking about the words I used. He said "well I see you don't like anything we currently have here and if we get in a Series one 1046l6 I'll let you know, I will also let you know when we get in other new amps so you can tell me how much they suck".
When he said that I started to think about all the negative comments I made and I apologized for how I expressed myself about what I was hearing. I told him that I'm a tone chaser and I have been having a frustrating time just trying to plug into amps I think would be what I want. I also told him much of my frustration is due to the fact no one carries higher quality amps on the floor anymore and who the hell am I or anyone else supposed to consider them ? I'm not a 1x12 or micro amp head kinda guy and thats really all you see anymore everywhere as most guys today for their reasons want these kinds of amps. I'm so effin out it's not even funny.
The only amp I thought that I could possibly be happy with and plug into was the 5150 III combo or 50 watt head and 2 x 12 cab. 8th street music who use to be in Philly now are in NJ over the bridge. I went there with extreme excitement and they had both the Head and Combo on the floor.
After about an hour of trying them both out, I actually purchased the 50 watt head and EVH 2 x 12 cab in black and felt " Finally I found a 3 channel amp that I can own love and make new music with". It has Midi control, 3 channels cleans that where except able, Crunch channel that was the best overall channel on the amp and an extreme gain channel that was noisy and a bit out of control but I felt with enough time tweaking, I could get to my liking.
So I took it all home, got my Midi controller effects and away I went. I didn't notice this in the store to much as I had the volume was down out of respect I don't like cranking up in stores and found the Clean and crunch channel to have an extreme volume difference.
No problem as I can fix that with a patch built on my processor, I'll just up the clean channel patch level and lower the Crunch patch level to slightly make it sound great together. After that fix I found that I was having a tonal issue with the Clean and crunch channel shared EQ. Another thing you don't realize when you in a store trying things out. I dialed in a great sounding clean and then the gain channel suffered, then I dialed in a killer incredible Crunch tone and now my cleans suffered. I wanted to beat my head against the wall.
This went on for 2 days straight so I decided to call Fender and see if there was a fix for these issues. They told me there currently was no fix and it's the number one complaint about that amp. I hung up the phone and didn't know what to do. Am I just a tone snob? I'm I just to damn picky with my sound? Am I mental?
So after 2 more days of trying to get this amp to do what I want it to do, I decided I had to return it especially after I did a side by side shootout with my Krank and my Krank for cleans and high gain destroyed it. I couldn't believe how much better my krank sounded vs. One thing I did learn in this adventure is I don't like the sound of Celestion speakers. My Krank uses Eminence legends and for the hell of it I tried the EVH head on them and man did the EVH to me sound fantastically better. The clean channel was clearer and the gain both of them sounded thicker and clearer. The clarity was a huge difference. The EVH cab is amazingly nice and well built but the speakers have this mid range not so clear sound that I find most amps today using those types of speakers all share. They are not clear, they sound like a plastic bag is over the cabinet and it's being muffled.
So it went back and I walked out with nothing other then the experience.

Honestly the only reason I want a new amp is because I want something new first and foremost, my Krank despite what others say who say the Krank revolution 1 is versatile and can play classic rock country Jazz and all that crap to me is dead wrong. The Krank does 2 things and thats it. It plays Heavy metal and cleans. It takes pedals well but I was trying to get away from having to use a pedal for a classic rock tone. I guess for now pedals will have to do as I just can't find what I want. And all the amp I think might be the ticket, Blackstar 6L6 , ENGL , Randall I can't go play anywhere. I'd even revisit the Marshall JVM as that amp has tons of versatility but without plugging in who really knows but me. Calvin amps, VHT and many others all seem very cool and probably have what I want but again can't go plug in.
Funny I plugged into a Soldano SLO100 when I purchased my 2016 White Hard Tail San Dimas Charvel and thought it had wonderful cleans , beautiful crunch but couldn't get there for high gain on it's own. It's like the krank in many ways, the clean channel was very close to the same exact sound like the Krank copied the Solano's design or both of them are using the Fender Bassman 10 head as a foundation for these amps.