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What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

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  • #31
    Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

    Originally posted by some_dude View Post
    The real question is why does a modern tone purist need more pedals than a '90s shoegazer?
    To be the Ultimate Boutique Tone Queen, of course.


    Originally posted by Scott_F View Post
    But I've had to ask myself: how many OD type pedals do I really need?
    Backinnaday I HAD to have that does-everything rack processor with 31 flavors of everything because I couldn't do the truckload of 9 volts every month and nobody made a power strip that could hold all the wall warts, and the various power pedals (all 2 of them) didn't work with every brand. If you had nothing but BOSS pedals, then the BOSS power pedal or board was fine, but if you had some of these and some of those and a few of that other one, you were stuck. As well, a powered board cost as much as one or two other pedals.

    So I got myself a rack with all the bells and whistles and could pretty much match tones of all the different albums and tapes and CDs I had and played along with - Alice Cooper to ZZ Top and everything in between.

    128 user presets seemed like a lot. It wasn't.


    When I started doing my own stuff, the need for all those various distortions dwindled. I didn't need a Machine Head tone and a Master of Reality tone and a British Steel tone and a Number Of The Beast tone and a Master of Puppets tone and a 10 from 6 tone and a Skynrd's Innards tone and a Back In Black tone and so on.
    I now use 10 patches of my ADA MP-1 that cover everything from sparkling cleans to the most saturated drive I'll ever need, and the other 8 patches are stepped from almost-clean to gritty to 2-guitar rhythm to 1-guitar rhythm to 3 different levels for solos, and the TSR-12 FX unit has maybe 5 patches with the same EQ settings and chorus, chorus+reverb, chorus+delay, effect reverb (empty arena), and effect delay (canyon echoes).
    Originally posted by Brown Note
    I'm soooooo jealous about the WR-1. It's the perfect guitar; fantastic to play, balances well even when seated and *great* reach for the upper frets. The sound is bright tight and very articulate. In summary it could only be more awesome if it had b00bs and was on fire!
    My Blog

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    • #32
      Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

      Originally posted by DrNewcenstein View Post
      When I started doing my own stuff, the need for all those various distortions dwindled. I didn't need a Machine Head tone and a Master of Reality tone and a British Steel tone and a Number Of The Beast tone and a Master of Puppets tone and a 10 from 6 tone and a Skynrd's Innards tone and a Back In Black tone and so on.
      I now use 10 patches of my ADA MP-1 that cover everything from sparkling cleans to the most saturated drive I'll ever need, and the other 8 patches are stepped from almost-clean to gritty to 2-guitar rhythm to 1-guitar rhythm to 3 different levels for solos, and the TSR-12 FX unit has maybe 5 patches with the same EQ settings and chorus, chorus+reverb, chorus+delay, effect reverb (empty arena), and effect delay (canyon echoes).
      Man... I couldn't imagine having all that. Back in the day I used the same tone for everything due to a mix of it being what I could afford and me being too uninformed to know any better.

      I had a solid state amp and a distortion pedal. I didn't even know they made amps that distorted on their own.... thought it was all done with pedals.

      First time I played a tube amp it blew my mind. It was a Dual Rectifier... and it felt like I had liquid fire under my fingers.
      || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

        I think the important term is hobby. It wasn't long ago that most pro equipment went to career musicians, semi-pro players who gigged, or beginners who wanted to be musicians. Now there's an entire class of hobbyists who don't necessarily aspire to gig and have money to spend. Sometimes quite a lot of money. If one were to look at big ticket guitar sales, say 5K-plus, I think it would turn out that most of them are being bought by affluent hobby players rather than pros. The same may hold true right down the price range to pickups & pedals. It wouldn't surprise me if hobbyists accounted for the bulk of musical equipment sales across the board. Beginners have always bought a lot of entry level equipment, that's nothing new. But now many of them- perhaps most of them- are starting out with what traditionally was considered pro gear.

        Certainly from the point of view of a small builder or a big company, new pedals are a super cheap way into the market. Launching a complete line of pedals probably costs less than launching one new model of amp or guitar. Even allowing for pretty extensive R&D they're relatively simple electronically and small & cheap to manufacture, ship & stock compared to guitars or amps. They don't require retooling for woodwork or cabinetry, or demand skilled craftsmanship. Just a chassis, board and components that can be assembled fast on order overseas and released in a matter of weeks, rather than months or years. And if they don't sell well, switch to a different model fast and fairly simply. From a retailer's point of view, it doesn't require a huge investment in inventory and they're easy to store & cheap to ship, so you can stock a lot of models for a very small outlay.

        And the market is gobbling them up. IMO this is due in good part to the huge variety of good sounding pedals available. Nowadays many- perhaps most- players are using pedals as their primary tone engine, rather than depending on amps for their signature sounds. All it takes is a clean amp and a handful of stomp boxes and you can have great tone. That wasn't always the norm. Until fairly recently it wasn't popular among those serious about their sound. When I was starting out it wasn't even possible.

        I absolutely agree it's a golden age, for pedals & effects especially but also for musical equipment in general.
        Never has so much been accessible to so many.
        .
        "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
        .

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

          Originally posted by Gearjoneser View Post
          I agree with everyone who mentioned that tough times have caused guitar players to spend their expendable cash on guitar toys that fall into a comfortable price point. It's also part of the reason lunchbox amps are so popular.

          Pedals have almost become like toys in a way.....like Star Wars figures or Pokémon cards.

          One thing I've noticed is how little time many guitar hobbyists spend getting to know their FX on a musical level, often parting with them before using them to their full potential. It's a sign of the times, with the trend of instant gratification over creativity. It's a shame because many of these musical toys are brilliant electronic creations full of musical potential.

          I think everyone who's amassed some nice FX should stop the acquisition and spend some quality time digging into the ones they already have. You'll probably stop letting some go so quickly.
          And there lies the secret to a lot of my pedal purchases.

          Many guys over here buy a pedal based on hype and what not, and then they discover it is not for them, or they do not bother to experiment sufficient with the pedal, get fed up and sell a 2 week old pedal for 30% less than what they paid for it.
          Tele, SG, LP Jr, '76 Ibanez Artist & Tokai LS92 + FUZZ boxes into a '66 AB165 Bassman & 2X12 (55Hz Greenbacks) / '73 Orange OR120 & 2X12 (V30 & SwampThang) / Orange Thunderverb 50 & PPC212 / Marshall Vintage Modern 50 & 2X12 Genz Benz g-Flex / Laney Klipp / Laney AOR Pro Tube 100


          "...it's a tree with a microphone" - Leslie West

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

            Originally posted by eclecticsynergy View Post
            I think the important term is hobby. It wasn't long ago that most pro equipment went to career musicians, semi-pro players who gigged, or beginners who wanted to be musicians. Now there's an entire class of hobbyists who don't necessarily aspire to gig and have money to spend. Sometimes quite a lot of money. If one were to look at big ticket guitar sales, say 5K-plus, I think it would turn out that most of them are being bought by affluent hobby players rather than pros. The same may hold true right down the price range to pickups & pedals. It wouldn't surprise me if hobbyists accounted for the bulk of musical equipment sales across the board. Beginners have always bought a lot of entry level equipment, that's nothing new. But now many of them- perhaps most of them- are starting out with what traditionally was considered pro gear.
            While hobbyists are most likely the largest part of the market based on pure numbers (more hobbyists than pros) I think pros are getting pulled along for the ride too.

            If you look back at old pictures it was pretty common to see big name guitarists using Boss, DOD, MXR, etc because it was reliable and easily available. And, while there's still a lot of pro guitarists using that stuff there's also been a slow creep of high end off-the shelf and boutique type pedals on their boards as well.

            Same goes for guitars. Look closely at someone's Fender and it turns out its either a) vintage, or b) a Suhr or Anderson, or their Gibson turns out to be either a) vintage, or b) a Historic.

            Same goes for amps (Matchless, /13, Suhr, Savage, Dr Z, etc).


            And don't get me wrong.... there's still a lot of pros using regular gear and for a long time thought they were more immune to it than us forum types, but I've been noticing this more and more over the last number of years.
            Last edited by some_dude; 09-11-2016, 02:28 PM.
            || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

              Originally posted by eclecticsynergy View Post
              I think the important term is hobby. It wasn't long ago that most pro equipment went to career musicians, semi-pro players who gigged, or beginners who wanted to be musicians. Now there's an entire class of hobbyists who don't necessarily aspire to gig and have money to spend. Sometimes quite a lot of money. If one were to look at big ticket guitar sales, say 5K-plus, I think it would turn out that most of them are being bought by affluent hobby players rather than pros. The same may hold true right down the price range to pickups & pedals. It wouldn't surprise me if hobbyists accounted for the bulk of musical equipment sales across the board. Beginners have always bought a lot of entry level equipment, that's nothing new. But now many of them- perhaps most of them- are starting out with what traditionally was considered pro gear.

              Certainly from the point of view of a small builder or a big company, new pedals are a super cheap way into the market. Launching a complete line of pedals probably costs less than launching one new model of amp or guitar. Even allowing for pretty extensive R&D they're relatively simple electronically and small & cheap to manufacture, ship & stock compared to guitars or amps. They don't require retooling for woodwork or cabinetry, or demand skilled craftsmanship. Just a chassis, board and components that can be assembled fast on order overseas and released in a matter of weeks, rather than months or years. And if they don't sell well, switch to a different model fast and fairly simply. From a retailer's point of view, it doesn't require a huge investment in inventory and they're easy to store & cheap to ship, so you can stock a lot of models for a very small outlay.

              And the market is gobbling them up. IMO this is due in good part to the huge variety of good sounding pedals available. Nowadays many- perhaps most- players are using pedals as their primary tone engine, rather than depending on amps for their signature sounds. All it takes is a clean amp and a handful of stomp boxes and you can have great tone. That wasn't always the norm. Until fairly recently it wasn't popular among those serious about their sound. When I was starting out it wasn't even possible.

              I absolutely agree it's a golden age, for pedals & effects especially but also for musical equipment in general.
              Never has so much been accessible to so many.
              Now that is a sad thought, but probably, VERY TRUE !
              Tele, SG, LP Jr, '76 Ibanez Artist & Tokai LS92 + FUZZ boxes into a '66 AB165 Bassman & 2X12 (55Hz Greenbacks) / '73 Orange OR120 & 2X12 (V30 & SwampThang) / Orange Thunderverb 50 & PPC212 / Marshall Vintage Modern 50 & 2X12 Genz Benz g-Flex / Laney Klipp / Laney AOR Pro Tube 100


              "...it's a tree with a microphone" - Leslie West

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                Originally posted by some_dude View Post
                While hobbyists are most likely the largest part of the market based on pure numbers (more hobbyists than pros) I think pros are getting pulled along for the ride too.

                If you look back at old pictures it was pretty common to see big name guitarists using Boss, DOD, MXR, etc because it was reliable and easily available. And, while there's still a lot of pro guitarists using that stuff there's also been a slow creep of high end off-the shelf and boutique type pedals on their boards as well.

                Same goes for guitars. Look closely at someone's Fender and it turns out its either a) vintage, or b) a Suhr or Anderson, or their Gibson turns out to be either a) vintage, or b) a Historic.

                Same goes for amps (Matchless, /13, Suhr, Savage, Dr Z, etc).


                And don't get me wrong.... there's still a lot of pros using regular gear and for a long time thought they were more immune to it than us forum types, but I've been noticing this more and more over the last number of years.
                Hey bro, I don't follow. What is 'regular gear' in 2016?

                What does getting 'pulled along' mean? And for what ride? Unwillingly or unwittingly making gear purchases? That isn't happening. The real-time truth is that there are a now (today) a multitude of fantastic, cool and interesting choices (in contrast to when Boss, Arion, Ibanez, MXR etc. were the main choices). Professionals and hobbyists are simply enjoying those cool choices. They have the opportunity to access those choices often as peer to peer trading and internet access make it easy.

                If you are referring to chasing an endless dragons tail in pursuit of a silver bullet, then I agree. But that has been going on since the '2nd' guitar brand was offered and marketed and has nothing to do with the influx of smaller gear makers. If you are a chaser, you chase what is currently available old and new. If you are a player, you play what is currently available both old and new. As far as not using the 'old standards' and instead opting for better designed instruments or amps, of course, why wouldn't someone? Particularly professionals.
                Rodney Gene Junior - My Artist Page And Gear Affiliations Austin Texas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                  I agree with everything you've said. I think we're both saying pretty much the same thing, but approaching it from totally different angles.
                  Last edited by some_dude; 09-11-2016, 04:57 PM.
                  || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                    Originally posted by some_dude View Post
                    While hobbyists are most likely the largest part of the market based on pure numbers (more hobbyists than pros) I think pros are getting pulled along for the ride too.

                    If you look back at old pictures it was pretty common to see big name guitarists using Boss, DOD, MXR, etc because it was reliable and easily available. And, while there's still a lot of pro guitarists using that stuff there's also been a slow creep of high end off-the shelf and boutique type pedals on their boards as well.

                    Same goes for guitars. Look closely at someone's Fender and it turns out its either a) vintage, or b) a Suhr or Anderson, or their Gibson turns out to be either a) vintage, or b) a Historic.

                    Same goes for amps (Matchless, /13, Suhr, Savage, Dr Z, etc).


                    And don't get me wrong.... there's still a lot of pros using regular gear and for a long time thought they were more immune to it than us forum types, but I've been noticing this more and more over the last number of years.
                    I do agree. Of course in the old days what we now think of as just regular gear was the pro level gear. A stock Strat or Les Paul was top level when most of us could only afford cheap imports. It bears repeating Jol Dantzig's comment, "Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now." Some great players still use basically the same gear they used to, which by today's standards is plain. And they make it shine.

                    Others prefer the deluxe equipment. Didn't mean to make it sound like I think pros weren't buying and using high end gear before- there have always been big names who'd use the best, and endorse it if they were offered the chance. My point was that now hobbyists & non-pros account for a significant portion of big ticket sales. That's a fairly recent development, I think, and a big change in the market dynamic. Very pricey items that would only have sold a couple of units a year before are now selling by the hundreds. Or even thousands.

                    And pedals are selling by the tens of thousands.
                    Last edited by eclecticsynergy; 09-11-2016, 09:19 PM. Reason: spelling, dammit
                    .
                    "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                    .

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                      Are the pro's really getting pulled along? I would think they lead the charge. Pro's don't buy what their favorite hobbyists are using but hobbyists typically have always aspired to own what the top pro's used. There certainly are guys out there who can afford the best and buy it when a Marshall Class 5 or Fender Champ or Peavey 6505M with a 1x12 cabinet will probably be sufficient for a guy whose largest venue is likely Madison Square Bedroom or a small music room in a corner of their house.

                      I do think it's true though, if you analysed the sales demographics you probably see more hobbyist players buying high end gear than before. To say there are less guitarists out there than 25 years ago? ....no. I think there are more than ever but with the number of gear choices available now, competition is fierce. Companies are branching out to get as many streams of revenue as possible.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                        Originally posted by ThisDyingSoul76 View Post
                        Are the pro's really getting pulled along? I would think they lead the charge. Pro's don't buy what their favorite hobbyists are using but hobbyists typically have always aspired to own what the top pro's used.
                        Perhaps "pulled along" wasn't the best way to put it.

                        I don't know how to put it without being so overly generalized that someone will find some detail to pick apart.

                        But, when it comes to high end pedals I see a lot more of them in hobbyists rigs than I do in professional rigs, and there's an awful lot of hobbyists buying $150-300 tubescreamers because they want the best when their hero is still using a TS-9.
                        || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

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                        • #42
                          Re: What's up with non-pedal companies getting into pedals?

                          Originally posted by some_dude View Post
                          Perhaps "pulled along" wasn't the best way to put it.

                          I don't know how to put it without being so overly generalized that someone will find some detail to pick apart.

                          But, when it comes to high end pedals I see a lot more of them in hobbyists rigs than I do in professional rigs, and there's an awful lot of hobbyists buying $150-300 tubescreamers because they want the best when their hero is still using a TS-9.
                          I almost plead guilty because I have some nice pedals for a hobbyist; but I don't quibble over how expensive a pedal is or how inexpensive. I have a boutique TS-808 with a modified voicing right along side a Joyo Vintage Overdrive. I buy what I can afford that sounds good.

                          As a matter of fact, very few pedals I have show up on the boards of superstars, although in one of the Crossroads a Guitar Festival DVD's I own, a few pedalboard shots came up with a few guys (Joe Walsh and possibly Buddy Guy) using Visual Sound pedals that I have or once had.

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