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  • Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

    Hi.

    Not sure if this is the right forum to be posting this question given that I'm trying to EXCLUDE a pedal from the setup. But here goes anyway.

    Can anybody think of a way to delay a guitar signal by anywhere between 10ms and 20ms WITHOUT using a digital or analog delay pedal and OBVIOUSLY without coloring the tone??? Kinda like introducing latency into the system.

    I ask because I'm using a Boss DD-7 to delay one side of my guitar signal (signal is split to go to two seperate amps.) but I find that it's definitely coloring the original signal being sent to the second amp. I'm getting an almost chorusy, flangey, type sound out of the second amp. and not to mention the difference in tone between the second amp. and the first amp. (both identical amps. with identical settings I must add). One would have expected this pedal to be transparent and simply delay what's being sent to it but this isn't the case evidently.

    Any ideas???

    Regards,

    Dale.

  • #2
    Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

    Can you widen the view of your signal chain - where/how is the split happening? And are or your lines going into the preamps, or FX loop returns?

    Also, just to make sure I understand, you’re looking for a slight delay to thicken your sound, but not go so far to give you a slap-back, right?

    Reason I ask is that I don’t know the DD-7, but I use my Strymon El Capistan always on for just that effect. Even at nil delay time, it introduces some delay - not that you can hear, but that you notice when it’s gone - I find I have to reduce repeats and overall mix a little to avoid the chorusing, especially if I have wow/flutter (modulation) turned up above 9pm.

    All that to say, how have you got the DD-7 set?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    • #3
      Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

      Just took a look at the DD7 page and it looks like, for minimal delay, you have the choice of Analog or Modulated modes?

      Analog = dark (is that what you mean by tonal differences?)
      Modulated = chorus

      It might just be that you need a less-featured digital delay or one that offers a pristine digital delay - TC Flashback comes to mind on the 2290 setting.


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
      Last edited by VinceT; 12-05-2018, 05:40 AM.

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      • #4
        Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

        Isn't this just a phase issue? The delay is flipping the phase which makes the amps out of phase with each other?

        I assume you split the signal before it hits the delay. Can you put some kind of ping pong delay and use both outputs straight from the dd-7 to see if you have that issue?

        To your question about alternatives, what you're asking for is a delay. There are some double trackers like the Keeley 30ms or TC Mimiq. What they do is delay. Look at the Mimiq in particular if the DD7 doesn't work, it might be what you're after and maybe simplifies your chain.
        Last edited by Blille; 12-05-2018, 09:08 AM.

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        • #5
          Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

          Hi all (everyone).

          Thanks for your posts and info.

          Take a listen to the intro. below and you'll hear exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Well: I do achieve it but as I've noted the audio from the (my) second amp. (right) is definitely not simply a delayed version of the dry signal being sent to the first (my) amp. (left).



          I've analysed this (the above) audio to death (over a 29 year period I'll have you know!!! I kid you not!!! LOL!!!). The tone of the left channel is identical to the tone of the right channel. It's just delayed. And the delay on the right does not include the initial note/attack first and then an additional delay i.e. ONLY the delayed note/attack on the right. Hope that makes sense.

          Signal chain:

          Click image for larger version

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          You may wonder why I'm splitting the signal BEFORE the DD-7 (given that it's a stereo pedal). This is because it does indeed introduce phase problems and comb. filtering. if you use the pedal on its own (mono input to the stereo output jacks) (and have even tried splitting guitar signal before the delay and going into the pedal dual mono but same thing). So I'm only using Input A (Mono) and Output A (Mono) to go to the right amp. Using it this way I get no phase issues or comb. filtering. Furthermore: when I set up my mics. and both amps. I ensure that, using phase correlation meters, they are perfectly in phase (meters always read just below +1 on any given meter). I phase align the whole lot with either white noise or pink noise (depending on my mood!!! LOL!!!). In addition: once the delay is engaged I check phase correlation and comb. filtering again. No comb. filtering but the phase correlation meters do jump around but they never go negative.

          In addition: this "phasey, flangy" sound is heard when ONLY the right amp. is on. In other words: it's not that I'm hearing phasing and comb. filtering because I'm listening to both amps.

          The pedal is set like this in order to achieve the above:

          E.LEVEL: 3 'o clock (which, apparently, is where the effect level and dry level are equal)
          F.BACK: 7 'o clock (which is fully counter clockwise and give only one delay iteration)
          D.TIME: 10 'o clock - 11 'o clock (this is around about a 20ms delay but depends on which outputs are connected and whether you're using the 50ms digital, or analog, delay setting).
          MODE: 50ms (but have tried ANALOG also)

          I'm using my (beloved) CODE amps. They're CODE50's and they don't have an effects loop so I'm delaying BEFORE distortion and gain. I have, however, fitted an effects loop to one of my CODE25's and have tried putting the delay in the effects loop but it makes no difference i.e. the tone is still being altered by the DD-7.

          Even if I run both amps. clean and engage the delay there is an audible difference in the tone coming out of the right amp. so it's not the fact that I'm delaying into distortion that's causing the problem (probably is not helping matters but it's not at the heart of the problem).

          I have TC Electronics' MIMIQ. Terrible pedal (no offense) (and one of my WORST and most BEGRUDGED purchases to date). It too introduces phase issues and comb. filtering. It does not simply delay a signal i.e. it uses a combination of chorus, flanging, delay, (and whatever else i.e. it's apparently a trade secret) at random and it really does sound terrible (and FAR worse than what I'm using/doing now).

          I wouldn't say I'm trying to double a guitar track. Just trying to get my sound as above without these flipping digital artifacts that are being introduced.

          I've been reading up on circuits that employ FIFO inducers and capacitors to achieve this. But hey make NO sense to me whatsoever. And furthermore: with all of the stuff I've read I see the words "phasing" and "comb. filtering" LIBERALLY used in the description of these circuits and not to mention a loss of certain frequency ranges!!! LOL!!!

          I'm thinking that POSSIBLY it's because I'm using a DIGITAL delay with DIGITAL modelling amps. maybe??? Much as I love these things: they're "full of it" and very "picky" when it comes to pedals up front.

          I guess I was sort of hoping that there would be some type of real simple solution e.g. adding extra cable to one side or something like that (just don't know how much extra cable would be required to delay a signal up to 20ms) (and of course any length of cable affects tone so it'd be right back to where I started from POSSIBLY just without the "phasey, flangy" sound is all).

          So. Any ideas???

          Regards,

          Dale.
          Last edited by dpaterson; 12-05-2018, 10:04 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

            Lol well, it looks like you have a pretty high bar

            I get what you want to do now. I don't understand how the DD-7 introduces combing when used 100% wet in a single channel but I'll take that as a fact.

            Introducing a long cable or anything of the sort (like an audio interface and back) will mess with your tone more than a DD-7 IMHO.

            Do you have a DD-3? I've seen people use it in stereo setups using the delayed and direct outs with no phase issues.

            Good luck!

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            • #7
              Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

              You are NOT going to believe this especially after all of the above (not to mention the time it took me to make that nice little chart of my signal flow) BUT PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

              WHY this solution (below) makes such a difference I know not. And I cannot even lay claim to the said solution i.e. I found it on the Internet (after posting the above obviously). Anyway. Here goes:

              Whatever OUTPUT JACK that is NOT being used on the DD-7 in the configuration above MUST have a "dummy" 1/4" jack plug inserted!!! It's that simple.

              Can you believe the simplicity of that??? LOL!!!

              NOW the DD-7 can be set as follows i.e. from the most minuscule delay time (probably between 1ms and 2ms) right up to wherever you want it:

              E.LEVEL: 3 'o clock (which, apparently, is where the effect level and dry level are equal) (as above)
              F.BACK: 7 'o clock (which is fully counter clockwise and gives only one delay iteration) (as above)
              D.TIME: 7 'o clock (MIN) (this is around about a 1ms to a 2ms delay i.e. almost off)
              MODE: 50ms (or even ANALOG as this works now too with no artifacts).

              NO phase issues, NO comb. filtering, NO "phasey, flangy" sound from the second amp. And as wide or as narrow a stereo field as you like. With D.TIME at 7 'o clock (MIN) the delay is practically off. But it's JUST enough to give you the effect required without all of the artifacts.

              As I said: NO idea why this should make such a big difference but there you have it. Go figure.

              Am wondering now if the TC Electronics MIMIQ will not be "magically cured" by using the same logic. Will check. As noted: this pedal does terrible things when used as directed (so much so that I actually did try it. some time ago, in the same type of configuration as my original configuration in my first post but the results were less than stellar although far better than using it as directed I can tell you).

              ALL of the above being said though: I'd still be curious to know if it's possible to create a delay of this nature i.e. a purely passive, let's call it "mechanical", delay.

              Regards,

              Dale.
              Last edited by dpaterson; 12-05-2018, 12:08 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                By adding another jack you separate the wet and dry outputs so it's 100% wet (from manual). It's similar to what I recommended with the DD-3.

                I just saw that you put in your settings the effect was at 3 o clock instead of at 100% wet.

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                • #9
                  Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                  Hey Blille.

                  Thanks for the posts and the help.

                  Yeh. The effect (E.LEVEL) I kept at 3 'o clock because the manual states that it's at that position where the dry signal equals the wet signal. But as it's connected now: there's no more dry signal anyway so it's acting as nothing more than a level control now.

                  So for the record now I'm going into the DD-7 on Input B, full wet signal coming out of Output A and going to the right hand side amp., and a "dummy" 1/4" jack plug in Output B. Works for me!!! LOL!!!

                  Been trying to work out why this all made such a difference. Only thing I can think of is that without that jack plug the pedal is sort of phasing and flanging in on itself (maybe mixing wet and dry and that's where the phasing and flanging was coming from). Maybe it's getting confused. Whatever the case: send that to these amps. of mine and, well, you have a bit of a problem on your hands so it would seem. May not have even been noticeable on a tube amp. Who knows. What I didn't mention is that on BOTH amps. THEIR respective delays are also turned on (just with different settings) so this too could have played into the mix (no pun intended). Dunno.

                  Anyways. All good (thank goodness as I REALLY wasn't in the mood to buy yet another pedal i.e. I thought my days of buying pedals etc. were over because of these amps. but how wrong was I!!! I've got more pedals now than I ever had with my tube amps. if I count them all including the one's that sound terrible with these amps. and are lying on the shelf!!! LOL!!!).

                  Thanks again.

                  Regards,

                  Dale.
                  Last edited by dpaterson; 12-05-2018, 02:23 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                    Easy, just go total old school....screw all this pedal crap.

                    I've done all the math for you -just add a long enough guitar cable into the delay chain to achieve the target delay

                    -so for 10 milliseconds you will need a cable only about 6,481,728 ft long. and for 20ms delay double it.....

                    I suggest calling Mogami, Belden, or Commscope direct -as 13 million foot spools of guitar cable MAY have longer lead times.....

                    I hope you plan to utilize this technique at Hair Metal Life Force practice. Going to sound so authentic!
                    “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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                    • #11
                      Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                      Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
                      Easy, just go total old school....screw all this pedal crap.

                      I've done all the math for you -just add a long enough guitar cable into the delay chain to achieve the target delay

                      -so for 10 milliseconds you will need a cable only about 6,481,728 ft long. and for 20ms delay double it.....

                      I suggest calling Mogami, Belden, or Commscope direct -as 13 million foot spools of guitar cable MAY have longer lead times.....

                      I hope you plan to utilize this technique at Hair Metal Life Force practice. Going to sound so authentic!
                      I would go Hosa rather than Mogami to keep it in budget.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                        Just get a DD-3 was my initial thought. And after reading everything....still is.
                        Originally posted by Bad City
                        He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                          I don't have a guaranteed solution, but surmising:

                          You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.

                          The major difference being that in the studio, delay (or other effect for that matter) is applied *after* the mic'd up speaker cab)

                          Whereas here you're putting the delay *before* the speaker cab... and before the amp of course.

                          That delay in your rig gets amplified/distorted/turned to mush by the preamp, etc... before it even reaches the speaker cab...
                          ...depending of course on how much gain you're pushing (a clean tone won't show this much).

                          Time-based effects always sound clearest *after* the speaker cab.

                          So, undoubtedly, what they prolly did here was in the console, added a short delay to Viv's mic'd dry tone which was bounced to a 2nd guitar track.

                          Then take the dry track, pan wide left - take the delayed track, pan wide right. Et voila.

                          Solution? Possibly this:

                          Chuck the ABY box out of the signal path... use the DD-7 to produce a dry signal on one side, and wet signal on the other.

                          guitar
                          |
                          compressor
                          |
                          EQ
                          |
                          BOSS DD7 -> dry out -> amp 1
                          |
                          wet out - amp 2


                          According to BOSS's DD-7 page:

                          You can also use the stereo outputs to create separate dry and wet signal paths — handy for recording and live-performance control.
                          https://www.boss.info/us/products/dd-7/

                          Still, nothing beats "post-powertube" time-based effects for clarity. And that subject is a whole different ball of wax.
                          Last edited by LLL; 12-05-2018, 11:03 PM.
                          Lefty Lounge Lizard's Guitars & Amps Extravaganza

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                          • #14
                            Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                            You may wonder why I'm splitting the signal BEFORE the DD-7 (given that it's a stereo pedal). This is because it does indeed introduce phase problems and comb. filtering. if you use the pedal on its own
                            If you're having phase issues with a (assumed) normal config, then there's prolly something else wrong. You should be able to do a W/D (wet/dry) rig via any stereo output delay stomp without phase issues.
                            Lefty Lounge Lizard's Guitars & Amps Extravaganza

                            Fastest ears in the West

                            "BS doesn't fly"

                            My Soundcloud

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                            • #15
                              Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

                              I love threads where the op solves the problem before I have a chance to post. Not the way I would have suggested, but whatever gets it done.

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