Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal
Good morning.
@NegativeEase and @Blille
Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).
I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!
I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!
@Aceman
I may be speaking out of turn here but seems to me these manufacturers are getting too fancy and trying to cram as much as they can and as many options as they can into a single box (in this case a pedal). It's a good thing if you're on a budget or for the sake of convenience I guess. But when you just want something simple...
The solution I posted isn't perfect by any stretch. There is a definite, but subtle, tonal difference with the pedal engaged but it's subtle enough that it can be EQ'd out now so not a problem. At least the "phasey, flangy" artifacts are gone. Just a bit surprised that the pedal is not as transparent as I would have thought it should be really. But I suppose that type of transparency only comes in very high end gear (at a price of course). Fair enough.
@LLL
You now me well already!!! LOL!!!
I can, and have, done all that manipulation with guitar tracks and it works of course (it's not without its pitfalls though e.g. simply delaying one side of a panned guitar track can also introduce phase correlation problems and issues as well as comb. filtering unless you get it "just right" and use a spectral delay after your initially simply delaying the track but this is another whole topic which I spent months on learning and "perfecting" not too long ago). I also just don't see the point of having monster recorded sound but mediocre live sound (for reasons far too many to mention here as it's just gonna upset some people).
Getting back to the specific problem at hand:
I tried your suggested configuration (which is exactly the way it's intended to be used as per the manual) i.e. ONLY using the DD-7 with no splitter. Please believe me: the signals moved in and out of phase at random and it sounded terrible. Aside from the fact that for some or the other reason (unbeknown to me) my ears are EXTREMELY attuned to detecting phase issues and comb. filtering: phase correlation meters confirmed this. Only thing I can think of is that this pedal (maybe others) are not actually capable of completely and totally isolating the left channel from the right channel and the dry signal from the wet signal (regardless of settings) i.e. there's some type of "spurious bleed" (for want of a better word) between channels and signals. Probably I only noticed this because of my configuration as you have noted i.e. compressor pedal to EQ pedal (both of which are introducing their own tone coloration and noise let's face it) and from there going to amp. distortion, gain, delay, and reverb. But as I noted above: the pedal is definitely not transparent and such transparency probably comes at a cost. But for all intents and purposes: I'm good to go (at least with this issue anyway).
As noted above to you: I can (for some or the other odd reason unbeknown to me as stated above) detect phase issues and comb. filtering a flipping mile away!!! LOL!!! When I set this stuff up I first, separately, phase align each pair of mics. on each of the cabs. and then I ensure that both cabs. are phase aligned with each other (and I don't rest until the phase correlation meter, sometimes more than one flavor, are as near as makes no difference to +1 AND STAY THERE) (it sometimes takes a while!!! LOL!!!). So at that point I'm 100% sure there ain't no phase issues. Use the pedal as indicated: the very moment you engage the pedal I can see the phase correlation meters drop right off and go negative (this without even playing a note i.e. just the amp. background noises and/or pink noise or white noise). But they don't stay negative i.e. they jump around between positive and negative so inverting amp. phase doesn't solve the problem. Configure it the way I've done it: they still drop off but don't go anywhere near negative. And this is not me just being pedantic or "full of it". It's not some type of "placebo effect". It's clearly audible (the difference between the two configurations).
Hmmmn... I suppose one workaround for this would be to delay the mics. as this would be delaying the total, overall, final sound. Wouldn't work in a live situation though. Interesting suggestions you made though nevertheless and food for thought.
@beaubrummels
Thanks for the post (made while I was posting ALL of the above).
What would be your suggestion for the sake of interest and education??? As noted below: I believe that these types of threads do serve a purpose even if they don't solve the initial problem or address the original topic. I mean to say: my problem may be resolved but who knows who will have a different requirement in the future, not know where to turn for help, and then discover some of these posts. And furthermore: my solution (as found on the Internet) may not be the best nor the most elegant.
I know some people get mad at me with these threads and posts. But I always see a pattern i.e. the thread may go off at a total tangent and not solve the initial problem or address the original topic but ALWAYS some or the other little nugget "comes out in the wash". Who would have known that it would take a 6,481,728 ft long cable to delay a guitar signal by 10ms??? Who would have thought to delay mic. inputs when recording??? LOL!!! Always something good (for me anyway).
Regards,
Dale.
P.S.
I wanted to mention this above when initially posting but forgot. Isn't it "Murphy and his law"!!! When you have latency (which essentially is all I'm trying to introduce to the right channel) in any system and you do NOT want it then it becomes a total mission to eliminate it and usually you never do. But when you actually DO want it: it's impossible to introduce without coloration i.e. pure and unadulterated latency is all that's needed here!!! LOL!!!
P.P.S
I really like this:
"Studio vs. Live"!!! LOL!!!
Good morning.
@NegativeEase and @Blille
Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).
I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!
I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!
@Aceman
I may be speaking out of turn here but seems to me these manufacturers are getting too fancy and trying to cram as much as they can and as many options as they can into a single box (in this case a pedal). It's a good thing if you're on a budget or for the sake of convenience I guess. But when you just want something simple...
The solution I posted isn't perfect by any stretch. There is a definite, but subtle, tonal difference with the pedal engaged but it's subtle enough that it can be EQ'd out now so not a problem. At least the "phasey, flangy" artifacts are gone. Just a bit surprised that the pedal is not as transparent as I would have thought it should be really. But I suppose that type of transparency only comes in very high end gear (at a price of course). Fair enough.
@LLL
You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.
I can, and have, done all that manipulation with guitar tracks and it works of course (it's not without its pitfalls though e.g. simply delaying one side of a panned guitar track can also introduce phase correlation problems and issues as well as comb. filtering unless you get it "just right" and use a spectral delay after your initially simply delaying the track but this is another whole topic which I spent months on learning and "perfecting" not too long ago). I also just don't see the point of having monster recorded sound but mediocre live sound (for reasons far too many to mention here as it's just gonna upset some people).
Getting back to the specific problem at hand:
I tried your suggested configuration (which is exactly the way it's intended to be used as per the manual) i.e. ONLY using the DD-7 with no splitter. Please believe me: the signals moved in and out of phase at random and it sounded terrible. Aside from the fact that for some or the other reason (unbeknown to me) my ears are EXTREMELY attuned to detecting phase issues and comb. filtering: phase correlation meters confirmed this. Only thing I can think of is that this pedal (maybe others) are not actually capable of completely and totally isolating the left channel from the right channel and the dry signal from the wet signal (regardless of settings) i.e. there's some type of "spurious bleed" (for want of a better word) between channels and signals. Probably I only noticed this because of my configuration as you have noted i.e. compressor pedal to EQ pedal (both of which are introducing their own tone coloration and noise let's face it) and from there going to amp. distortion, gain, delay, and reverb. But as I noted above: the pedal is definitely not transparent and such transparency probably comes at a cost. But for all intents and purposes: I'm good to go (at least with this issue anyway).
As noted above to you: I can (for some or the other odd reason unbeknown to me as stated above) detect phase issues and comb. filtering a flipping mile away!!! LOL!!! When I set this stuff up I first, separately, phase align each pair of mics. on each of the cabs. and then I ensure that both cabs. are phase aligned with each other (and I don't rest until the phase correlation meter, sometimes more than one flavor, are as near as makes no difference to +1 AND STAY THERE) (it sometimes takes a while!!! LOL!!!). So at that point I'm 100% sure there ain't no phase issues. Use the pedal as indicated: the very moment you engage the pedal I can see the phase correlation meters drop right off and go negative (this without even playing a note i.e. just the amp. background noises and/or pink noise or white noise). But they don't stay negative i.e. they jump around between positive and negative so inverting amp. phase doesn't solve the problem. Configure it the way I've done it: they still drop off but don't go anywhere near negative. And this is not me just being pedantic or "full of it". It's not some type of "placebo effect". It's clearly audible (the difference between the two configurations).
Hmmmn... I suppose one workaround for this would be to delay the mics. as this would be delaying the total, overall, final sound. Wouldn't work in a live situation though. Interesting suggestions you made though nevertheless and food for thought.
@beaubrummels
Thanks for the post (made while I was posting ALL of the above).
What would be your suggestion for the sake of interest and education??? As noted below: I believe that these types of threads do serve a purpose even if they don't solve the initial problem or address the original topic. I mean to say: my problem may be resolved but who knows who will have a different requirement in the future, not know where to turn for help, and then discover some of these posts. And furthermore: my solution (as found on the Internet) may not be the best nor the most elegant.
I know some people get mad at me with these threads and posts. But I always see a pattern i.e. the thread may go off at a total tangent and not solve the initial problem or address the original topic but ALWAYS some or the other little nugget "comes out in the wash". Who would have known that it would take a 6,481,728 ft long cable to delay a guitar signal by 10ms??? Who would have thought to delay mic. inputs when recording??? LOL!!! Always something good (for me anyway).
Regards,
Dale.
P.S.
I wanted to mention this above when initially posting but forgot. Isn't it "Murphy and his law"!!! When you have latency (which essentially is all I'm trying to introduce to the right channel) in any system and you do NOT want it then it becomes a total mission to eliminate it and usually you never do. But when you actually DO want it: it's impossible to introduce without coloration i.e. pure and unadulterated latency is all that's needed here!!! LOL!!!
P.P.S
I really like this:
Incompetence is widespread in a world that rewards mediocrity while punishing excellence.
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