Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Hey, hey.

TC Mimiq?

Thanks for the post.

Nah. Have one. Doesn't "do it" for me. It does "too much" i.e. far more than just simply delaying a signal. And if used incorrectly (in the wrong place in the signal chain) it causes all manner of phasing issues and introduces comb. filtering big time. Not really trying to "double track" here i.e. just a simple delaying of one side. Doing alright though with this now (with my "odd" signal chain as described above).

Thanks again.

Regards,

Dale.

[IMENATOR]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

TC Mimiq?

[Blille]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Nah, the ones you’re thinking of only delay both signals at the same time.

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Hilarious. LOL!!!

Tried Prozac though. Didn't change a thing about delays, pickups, tone, fuzz, or anything else for that matter. So gave it a miss!!! LOL!!!

Booze is the next logical step. If nothing else: at least when you're pis*ed this stuff doesn't matter so much and it actually sounds just fine.

Regards,

Dale.

[Aceman]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Have you tried an Anafranil?

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Really, the right way to solve it would be with a quality studio rackmount delay or a studio-quality software delay where the signal is pristine and you have control over the parameters, rather than a pedal. Pedals are affordable effects and you get what you pay for.

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Also, I say go with the Oxygen Free Mogami Cable, -sure that would come in at about $3,462,833.00

but I think the tonal advantages speak for themselves.

I think you're right about the tonal advantages (never thought about using an oxygen free cable i.e. never tried one to be honest). I mean: the last thing I need is more tone coloration on the right hand side let's face it.

But now is that price for the 1ms or 2ms delay or longer???

@dpeterson since the pedal supports a dry and wet signal out of the box itself, I would have just run through the pedal and used it for the split, rather than try to run the dry signal outside and around the pedal. (Unless I misunderstood what you are doing). Running through the pedal and letting the pedal handle splitting the dry and wet would keep levels and eq similar, IME.

Nope. You understand 100% correctly what I'm doing. Using the pedal ONLY introduces phasing issues and comb. filtering for whatever reason (details in one of my posts above). Absolutely NO idea why this is the case.

(Edit)

In all fairness to Boss though: I've not seen any complaints about the DD-7 generally speaking. So it's quite possible that this is just a bad interaction between my amps. and my setup. Maybe I should finish the project that I started a little while ago and add effects loops to my CODE50 amps. It's a bit of a mission though but maybe I'll get around to it and see (no urgency as things stand now though). If I do that: because it's a stereo pedal there's no problem taking sends out of each amp. into L + R of the DD-7 and L + R out of the DD-7 return to each amp. Then I'm delaying AFTER distortion and gain which could solve the phase and comb. filtering issues when using the pedal as per the instructions. I know for sure that the TC Electronic MIMIQ MUST be AFTER distortion and gain (which, ironically, is the main reason why I experimented with adding an effects loop to one of my CODE25 amps.). This all being said though: it's definitely NOT a transparent pedal i.e. dry signal <> 100% signal dry post pedal and effect definitely not simply dry delayed and there is definite tone coloration (however slight it may be). Putting it in an effects loop may (or may not???) improve on the phase and comb. filtering issues is all.

Regards,

Dale.

[NegativeEase]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Good morning.


@NegativeEase and @Blille

Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).

I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!

I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!

Also, I say go with the Oxygen Free Mogami Cable, -sure that would come in at about $3,462,833.00

but I think the tonal advantages speak for themselves.

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

@dpeterson since the pedal supports a dry and wet signal out of the box itself, I would have just run through the pedal and used it for the split, rather than try to run the dry signal outside and around the pedal. (Unless I misunderstood what you are doing). Running through the pedal and letting the pedal handle splitting the dry and wet would keep levels and eq similar, IME.

[dpaterson]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Good morning.


@NegativeEase and @Blille

Well I'll go for a shorter delay then. Say 1ms. That's only 648,172 ft long. No issues with Hosa (all my cables are Hosa) but for this I reckon higher quality would be better i.e. I don't want to lose any signal strength and then have to boost the signal because that's probably going to color the tone again. I'm sure I'd get a bulk discount but based on Amazon's price (just to get a rough idea is all) for a 25 ft Mogami instrument cable: a 1ms delay would cost around $1 709 877.74 (gold plated jacks included but excluding shipping and import duties).

I nearly choked on my coffee and almost fell out of bed when I read your two posts this morning on my iPad I was laughing so hard!!! LOL!!! Too funny. Thanks for that. Made my day!!! LOL!!!

I believe there is a way though!!! Just not sure what it is (yet)!!!


@Aceman

I may be speaking out of turn here but seems to me these manufacturers are getting too fancy and trying to cram as much as they can and as many options as they can into a single box (in this case a pedal). It's a good thing if you're on a budget or for the sake of convenience I guess. But when you just want something simple...

The solution I posted isn't perfect by any stretch. There is a definite, but subtle, tonal difference with the pedal engaged but it's subtle enough that it can be EQ'd out now so not a problem. At least the "phasey, flangy" artifacts are gone. Just a bit surprised that the pedal is not as transparent as I would have thought it should be really. But I suppose that type of transparency only comes in very high end gear (at a price of course). Fair enough.


@LLL

You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.

You now me well already!!! LOL!!!

I can, and have, done all that manipulation with guitar tracks and it works of course (it's not without its pitfalls though e.g. simply delaying one side of a panned guitar track can also introduce phase correlation problems and issues as well as comb. filtering unless you get it "just right" and use a spectral delay after your initially simply delaying the track but this is another whole topic which I spent months on learning and "perfecting" not too long ago). I also just don't see the point of having monster recorded sound but mediocre live sound (for reasons far too many to mention here as it's just gonna upset some people).

Getting back to the specific problem at hand:

I tried your suggested configuration (which is exactly the way it's intended to be used as per the manual) i.e. ONLY using the DD-7 with no splitter. Please believe me: the signals moved in and out of phase at random and it sounded terrible. Aside from the fact that for some or the other reason (unbeknown to me) my ears are EXTREMELY attuned to detecting phase issues and comb. filtering: phase correlation meters confirmed this. Only thing I can think of is that this pedal (maybe others) are not actually capable of completely and totally isolating the left channel from the right channel and the dry signal from the wet signal (regardless of settings) i.e. there's some type of "spurious bleed" (for want of a better word) between channels and signals. Probably I only noticed this because of my configuration as you have noted i.e. compressor pedal to EQ pedal (both of which are introducing their own tone coloration and noise let's face it) and from there going to amp. distortion, gain, delay, and reverb. But as I noted above: the pedal is definitely not transparent and such transparency probably comes at a cost. But for all intents and purposes: I'm good to go (at least with this issue anyway).

As noted above to you: I can (for some or the other odd reason unbeknown to me as stated above) detect phase issues and comb. filtering a flipping mile away!!! LOL!!! When I set this stuff up I first, separately, phase align each pair of mics. on each of the cabs. and then I ensure that both cabs. are phase aligned with each other (and I don't rest until the phase correlation meter, sometimes more than one flavor, are as near as makes no difference to +1 AND STAY THERE) (it sometimes takes a while!!! LOL!!!). So at that point I'm 100% sure there ain't no phase issues. Use the pedal as indicated: the very moment you engage the pedal I can see the phase correlation meters drop right off and go negative (this without even playing a note i.e. just the amp. background noises and/or pink noise or white noise). But they don't stay negative i.e. they jump around between positive and negative so inverting amp. phase doesn't solve the problem. Configure it the way I've done it: they still drop off but don't go anywhere near negative. And this is not me just being pedantic or "full of it". It's not some type of "placebo effect". It's clearly audible (the difference between the two configurations).

Hmmmn... I suppose one workaround for this would be to delay the mics. as this would be delaying the total, overall, final sound. Wouldn't work in a live situation though. Interesting suggestions you made though nevertheless and food for thought.


@beaubrummels

Thanks for the post (made while I was posting ALL of the above).

What would be your suggestion for the sake of interest and education??? As noted below: I believe that these types of threads do serve a purpose even if they don't solve the initial problem or address the original topic. I mean to say: my problem may be resolved but who knows who will have a different requirement in the future, not know where to turn for help, and then discover some of these posts. And furthermore: my solution (as found on the Internet) may not be the best nor the most elegant.


I know some people get mad at me with these threads and posts. But I always see a pattern i.e. the thread may go off at a total tangent and not solve the initial problem or address the original topic but ALWAYS some or the other little nugget "comes out in the wash". Who would have known that it would take a 6,481,728 ft long cable to delay a guitar signal by 10ms??? Who would have thought to delay mic. inputs when recording??? LOL!!! Always something good (for me anyway).

Regards,

Dale.


P.S.

I wanted to mention this above when initially posting but forgot. Isn't it "Murphy and his law"!!! When you have latency (which essentially is all I'm trying to introduce to the right channel) in any system and you do NOT want it then it becomes a total mission to eliminate it and usually you never do. But when you actually DO want it: it's impossible to introduce without coloration i.e. pure and unadulterated latency is all that's needed here!!! LOL!!!


P.P.S

I really like this:

Incompetence is widespread in a world that rewards mediocrity while punishing excellence.

"Studio vs. Live"!!! LOL!!!

[beaubrummels]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

I love threads where the op solves the problem before I have a chance to post. Not the way I would have suggested, but whatever gets it done.

[LLL]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

You may wonder why I'm splitting the signal BEFORE the DD-7 (given that it's a stereo pedal). This is because it does indeed introduce phase problems and comb. filtering. if you use the pedal on its own

If you're having phase issues with a (assumed) normal config, then there's prolly something else wrong. You should be able to do a W/D (wet/dry) rig via any stereo output delay stomp without phase issues.

[LLL]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

I don't have a guaranteed solution, but surmising:

You're trying to emulate a studio process with a live rig.

The major difference being that in the studio, delay (or other effect for that matter) is applied *after* the mic'd up speaker cab)

Whereas here you're putting the delay *before* the speaker cab... and before the amp of course.

That delay in your rig gets amplified/distorted/turned to mush by the preamp, etc... before it even reaches the speaker cab...
...depending of course on how much gain you're pushing (a clean tone won't show this much).

Time-based effects always sound clearest *after* the speaker cab.

So, undoubtedly, what they prolly did here was in the console, added a short delay to Viv's mic'd dry tone which was bounced to a 2nd guitar track.

Then take the dry track, pan wide left - take the delayed track, pan wide right. Et voila.

Solution? Possibly this:

Chuck the ABY box out of the signal path... use the DD-7 to produce a dry signal on one side, and wet signal on the other.

guitar
|
compressor
|
EQ
|
BOSS DD7 -> dry out -> amp 1
|
wet out - amp 2


According to BOSS's DD-7 page:

You can also use the stereo outputs to create separate dry and wet signal paths — handy for recording and live-performance control.

https://www.boss.info/us/products/dd-7/

Still, nothing beats "post-powertube" time-based effects for clarity. And that subject is a whole different ball of wax.

[Aceman]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Just get a DD-3 was my initial thought. And after reading everything....still is.

[Blille]

Re: Delay guitar signal with no delay pedal

Easy, just go total old school....screw all this pedal crap.

I've done all the math for you -just add a long enough guitar cable into the delay chain to achieve the target delay

-so for 10 milliseconds you will need a cable only about 6,481,728 ft long. and for 20ms delay double it.....

I suggest calling Mogami, Belden, or Commscope direct -as 13 million foot spools of guitar cable MAY have longer lead times.....

I hope you plan to utilize this technique at Hair Metal Life Force practice. Going to sound so authentic!

I would go Hosa rather than Mogami to keep it in budget.