Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Yeah, that's what I am referring to.

But of course you cannot or should not do the wire reversal on PAF clones with braided 2c wires. Because then it would mean that the shielding wires should carry the signal, not the best for isolating the output from outside electric interference.

Well you can if you want too ...
Of yeah, I keep forgetting that there are those that don't use four conductor cable (or at least 2 conductor with shield) ... come into this century man ...
Just kidding ...

I guess that's all there is to the PG mod. Am not too sure tho, but still, I suppose he reversed the pickup in a naive attempt to correct the magnet reversal. So there are 2 things to the PG mod as far as I know. 1. flip the magnet 2. flip the neck pickup. Am not gonna do the second point anyway.

Off hand I don't see in that case what reversing the pup would accomplish, maybe in instances of coil tapping (splitting to use the SD term) ...

What I wanna get is:

1. 2vol/2tone setup
2. phase reversal (especially when the HB are full on)
3. HB bridge, HB neck, middle position as in LP; then I would like to split (parellel wiring for each is not mandatory, in fact don't care for it too much) both the HB and control their volumes seperately.

As I am saying maybe it is not doable. Maybe is. Gotta check it carefully.

The tools at my disposal (gotta drill some holes through the pickguard) a 3way tele switch; 2 CTS 500K pots; 1 500/500K dual concentric pot; DPDT (on/on/on) miniswitches and simple on/on miniswitches.

Thanks man, you know I appreciate it!

B

Should work just fine, I'd dump the on/on/on DPDTs though for on/on DPDTs as it's a waste to have them there as you are only going to split the pups (no parallel), also are you planning on splitting the pups individually ... I looks like not from what you wrote above ... you just want to split both pups at the same time correct? And you want both in phase and out of phase options right? If this is what you want then you'll need two on/on DPDTs.
And I assume you want all hum-cancelling correct? You also said that you don't really turn down the volume past 5 or so right, so you don't need the pups going to the wipers, you just need some control over blending the pups in and out *somewhat* to get different textures right?

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

I love it when you double-check/correct me.

My "great idea" that I eluded to earlier, is actually pretty simple. On a dual volume, (or more), guitar, simply add a resistor on the ground leg of the volume control. This does two things:

1. It prevents you from rolling the volume control, and subsequently both pups, down to zero.

2. It gives you back full rotation of the volume control.

This idea, of course, assumes that one would use the volume control to balance one pup with another, rather than turn it off completely. You can only roll the volume off halfway with this scheme.

The value of the resistor and the value of the pot should sum to whatever the desired pup load is - ie., 250k + 250K for an effective 500k, etc.

Also, one could play around with the values as desired: 100k + 500k would give a total 600k load, and allow you to go 80% down in volume without going to zero. Stuff like that.

Not sure how great, overall, this idea is - its just an idea.

I'll look more closely later on, but you can do a similar thing by lifting the ground on the pots and using them as a varible resistor. Either way though the taper of the pot will be effected, but those are the breaks. I'll have to look it over closer a bit later on.

[ArtieToo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Either way though the taper of the pot will be effected, but those are the breaks. I'll have to look it over closer a bit later on.

You could be right about that, but I didn't think the taper would be affected per se, since the resistors are added in series. When the volume is at "0", you'll be at half volume, (or whatever pot/resistor ratio you selected), regardless of the taper. Not really sure about this one.

I'll try this out myself as soon as I get a dual-control guitar. (Which I'm hoping will be in the next couple weeks.)

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

It would be nice to know how the person who originally posted the question that started this thread has made out ...

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

You could be right about that, but I didn't think the taper would be affected per se, since the resistors are added in series. When the volume is at "0", you'll be at half volume, (or whatever pot/resistor ratio you selected), regardless of the taper. Not really sure about this one.

Man, one look at the voltage divider equation will show you it will ...

500k-A pot set a 5 ... CW~W:450k; W~Ground:50k ...RT:500k

Voltage in 10V (why...it divides easy)... 10V(450k)/RT 500k= 9V which is the voltage DROP across the 450k ... 10V-9V= 1V ... 1V is 1/10 of 10V ... -20dB

Roughly half as loud (we are dealing with voltage not power or current).

500k-A pot set a 5 with 250K in series with the CCW lug to ground...
CW~W:450k; W~Ground: 750k (50k of pot in series with 250k resistor).

10V(450k)/RT 750k= 6V which again is the voltage drop across the 450k ... 10V-6V=4V ... 4V is 2/5 of 10V ... ~ -7.96dB ... not evenly remotely the same!

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Yeah, the phase thing will work just fine B.
Hey Barlo, I guess I should ask, you aren't doing anything oddball like using an Ant. pup, with a Non-Ant. pup are you? And both pups are going to be mounted normally right? Good! This is for two Ants. (they offer them with four conductor on request don't they?), or two non-Ants. ... not one of each ... If you want you can ground the wipers of the concentric tone control and run the ends of their respective caps to the wiper of their respective volume controls ... it makes no difference ... I drew it this way because it was easier.

I couldn't resist the title ...

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Thanks Kent! This is the first time I ever had my name in the title of a wiring scheme! Very COOOL!

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Kent,

I am gonna be using 4c HBs no problems there.

As far as I understand the positions will be: (remember the 3 way tele switch)

1. Neck full HB position

1.a. if the second DPDT switch is off it would be neck full HB

1.b. if the second DPDT switch is only the neck will be split, no? Red and white of the bridge going to the second DPDT switch would not affect nothing, as the black of the bridge is inactive. No?

2. middle position

2.a. if both of the switches are off, then it would be the good old LP middle position with 2 tone 2 vol wiring.

2.b. If the first DPDT switch is on and the second DPDT switch is off, then it would be the PG out of phase tone, still controlled by the 2 volumes and 2 tones.

2.c. If the first DPDT switch is off and the second DPDT on it would be in phase, both pickups split, series tone; like a good old tele middle position no? Humcancelling no?

2.d. If the first and second DPDT switches are on, it would be out of phase split tone. Just like a mosquito, virtually not usable, but anyway maybe with the vol control something funky can be played, me thinks.

3. Bridge position: No matter whether or not the DPDT switches are on or off, it would be the full HB bridge tone!

Very cool man very cool. I could not figure this out myself. Gotta admit it. I am thinking of using my excellent 8.40/8.00K PG set, and hence I don't care much for the individual split positions. The only thing that would make this whole wiring the best ever would be to be able to get (1) the neck split, bridge HB full and (2) neck full; the bridge split positions.

But as it is it is excellent. The last thing would require another miniswitch no?

EDIT: Now that I think, **** it! I already have the volume control on both of the pickups separately! Thus in the middle position, I could get more sparkle or depthness by playing with the volumes, instead of splitting only one of the HBs. Hence, this simply could be the most excellent wiring ever!

Much obliged!

B

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

One simple thing tho:

The symbol generally used for ground designates the neck green in the diagram titled "Barlo's Bluesy Big Apple Boogie Machine"! Really sounds great man!

Anyway lemme come back to the question: In the first DPDT that symbol says connect the neck green to B lug of the DPDT miniswitch labelling it as

A D

B E

C F

On the second DPDT it says connect it to A. I think one is a ground the other the neck green no? I think the drawing in the first DPDT one is wrong and B should be connected to ground; and in the second DPDT switch the drawing is right, that is A gets the neck green. No?

Anyway my head is spining now!

B

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Kent,

I am gonna be using 4c HBs no problems there.

As far as I understand the positions will be: (remember the 3 way tele switch)

1. Neck full HB position

1.a. if the second DPDT switch is off it would be neck full HB

1.b. if the second DPDT switch is only the neck will be split, no? Red and white of the bridge going to the second DPDT switch would not affect nothing, as the black of the bridge is inactive. No?

2. middle position

2.a. if both of the switches are off, then it would be the good old LP middle position with 2 tone 2 vol wiring.

2.b. If the first DPDT switch is on and the second DPDT switch is off, then it would be the PG out of phase tone, still controlled by the 2 volumes and 2 tones.

Yes to all the above ...

2.c. If the first DPDT switch is off and the second DPDT on it would be in phase, both pickups split, series tone; like a good old tele middle position no? Humcancelling no?

Yes, but the Tele position you refer to is parallel not series ... just so you know, yes hum-cancelling ...

2.d. If the first and second DPDT switches are on, it would be out of phase split tone. Just like a mosquito, virtually not usable, but anyway maybe with the vol control something funky can be played, me thinks.

Yeah, good for funk, blending the volumes will produce some cool tonal shades, try that sound with a compressor sometimes ... Hum-cancelling also.

3. Bridge position: No matter whether or not the DPDT switches are on or off, it would be the full HB bridge tone!

No, the bridge pup gets split also, you didn't say anything about not splitting it in the bridge only position , and when the phase switch is pulled it will select which coil is split (a side benefit), the phase of the pup will be reversed even in full mode, but you won't hear any difference unless it's combined with the other pup (this is normal of course).

Very cool man very cool. I could not figure this out myself. Gotta admit it. I am thinking of using my excellent 8.40/8.00K PG set, and hence I don't care much for the individual split positions. The only thing that would make this whole wiring the best ever would be to be able to get (1) the neck split, bridge HB full and (2) neck full; the bridge split positions.

But as it is it is excellent. The last thing would require another miniswitch no?

Never thought about it,from a hum-cancelling standpoint that idea repulses me ... That's more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done with the addition of a on/off/on SPDT or DPDT switch to disable either split.

EDIT: Now that I think, **** it! I already have the volume control on both of the pickups separately! Thus in the middle position, I could get more sparkle or depthness by playing with the volumes, instead of splitting only one of the HBs. Hence, this simply could be the most excellent wiring ever!

Much obliged!

B

Yeah I think the dual volume in this set up will work out well ... Everything except for the neck only split and bridge only split will be hum-cancelling, they won't for obvious reasons ... man grab a compressor and try those as well, don't just let them go to waste.

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

One simple thing tho:

The symbol generally used for ground designates the neck green in the diagram titled "Barlo's Bluesy Big Apple Boogie Machine"! Really sounds great man!

Anyway lemme come back to the question: In the first DPDT that symbol says connect the neck green to B lug of the DPDT miniswitch labelling it as

A D

B E

C F

On the second DPDT it says connect it to A. I think one is a ground the other the neck green no? I think the drawing in the first DPDT one is wrong and B should be connected to ground; and in the second DPDT switch the drawing is right, that is A gets the neck green. No?

Anyway my head is spining now!

B

That is a ground symbol ... that tells you to ground neck green, and ground that *B* lug on the first DPDT (one on left); have no idea what you are referring to in regard to the second (one on right) DPDT? The neck green doesn't connect to that at all (it goes to ground hence the symbol) ... Look closely at the legend at the upper left hand corner.

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

That is a ground symbol ... that tells you to ground neck green, and ground that *B* lug on the first DPDT (one on left); have no idea what you are referring to in regard to the second (one on right) DPDT? The neck green doesn't connect to that at all (it goes to ground hence the symbol) ... Look closely at the legend at the upper left hand corner.

Got it. As I said my head was spinning!

B

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

No, the bridge pup gets split also, you didn't say anything about not splitting it in the bridge only position , and when the phase switch is pulled it will select which coil is split (a side benefit), the phase of the pup will be reversed even in full mode, but you won't hear any difference unless it's combined with the other pup (this is normal of course).



Never thought about it,from a hum-cancelling standpoint that idea repulses me ... That's more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done with the addition of a on/off/on SPDT or DPDT switch to disable either split.



Yeah I think the dual volume in this set up will work out well ... Everything except for the neck only split and bridge only split will be hum-cancelling, they won't for obvious reasons ... man grab a compressor and try those as well, don't just let them go to waste.

The more positions the better. So I can get the bridge split as well. Cool!

Nevermind about the additional positions I indicated in the previous post. As I said in the edit part, screw them, I can get much more with the vol and tone controls anyway.

And BTW I always thought tele mid position was series. It is great to learn things everyday, no?

B

[ArtieToo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Man, one look at the voltage divider equation will show you it will ...

500k-A pot set a 5 ... CW~W:450k; W~Ground:50k ...RT:500k

Voltage in 10V (why...it divides easy)... 10V(450k)/RT 500k= 9V which is the voltage DROP across the 450k ... 10V-9V= 1V ... 1V is 1/10 of 10V ... -20dB

Roughly half as loud (we are dealing with voltage not power or current).

500k-A pot set a 5 with 250K in series with the CCW lug to ground...
CW~W:450k; W~Ground: 750k (50k of pot in series with 250k resistor).

10V(450k)/RT 750k= 6V which again is the voltage drop across the 450k ... 10V-6V=4V ... 4V is 2/5 of 10V ... ~ -7.96dB ... not evenly remotely the same!

I think we accidently got on two separate tracks here, probably because of the way I posed my statement. What I meant was, that with the volume pots on zero, with my resistor mod, both volumes would be at halfway, regardless of whether they were audio taper or linear pots. At any pot setting other than zero, the taper will definitely be skewed one way or the other.

Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)

idsnowdog; Did we ever actually answer your original question all the way. We kinda got two threads going at once here.

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

I think we accidently got on two separate tracks here, probably because of the way I posed my statement. What I meant was, that with the volume pots on zero, with my resistor mod, both volumes would be at halfway, regardless of whether they were audio taper or linear pots. At any pot setting other than zero, the taper will definitely be skewed one way or the other.

Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)

idsnowdog; Did we ever actually answer your original question all the way. We kinda got two threads going at once here.

3 threads going on at the same time!

Anyways, no problems in the middle position, because then it will be the good old LP middle position. And both of the tones at 10, there won't be that much of a loss of highs even with non-no load pots. How do I know, well have been playing LPs with that kinda wiring for quite a while now, like 10 years! I am getting old!

B