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Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

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    Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by ArtieToo

    Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)
    Also, please go back and reread my statement concerning this explanation to Barlo (somewhere toward the beginning of this thread) ... BTW ... the F-16's are going to be changed over to all tubes (metal cased mil-spec 6L6's and 6JS7's).

    Leave a comment:

  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by ArtieToo
    Dadgummit . . . I keep forgetting that LP's have been wired this way for decades.

    One of these days I'll learn that "guitar electronics" ain't exactly the same as F-14 electronics.
    Personally as much as I like the F-14 & 16's I feel if the world had more guitars and less of the others (although they would make cool sports cars, so to speak) we'd be better off ... Oh course this also reminds me of the saying *It does no good for the sheep to pass laws regarding vegetarianism, while the wolves remain of a different opinion ...*

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  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by dr.barlo
    3 threads going on at the same time!

    B
    Do I hear four threads ... sold! To the Doobie Brother in the plaid golf pants, striped shirt, polka dotted tie, and tie dye sneakers,wearing cheap sunglasses!

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  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by ArtieToo
    I think we accidently got on two separate tracks here, probably because of the way I posed my statement. What I meant was, that with the volume pots on zero, with my resistor mod, both volumes would be at halfway, regardless of whether they were audio taper or linear pots. At any pot setting other than zero, the taper will definitely be skewed one way or the other.

    Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)
    I had an incredibly detailed and LONG answer to this, and lost it somehow ... *&^#$%@#$ ... Anyway, first the short answer is (using standard values) using a 47k ground shunt resistor with a 500k-A pot will give you about -23dB or so at 0 (a little less than half volume), the other route using a 220ktapering resistor between the CW and W to linear-ize th pot a bit (more subtle,better control of mixing the two pups) ... down side greater loading on the pups Res Fc Peak (although this may be desireable) ...third a combo of both with the ground shunt resistorvalue altered accordingly.
    This problem with the first is that you lose the ability to kill the guitar if need be. Wiring one control conventional and the other alternative has merit also, as one will kill the signal if need be in the middle position. The master volume/attenuator setup (with either lifted ground or the inclusion of the ground shunt resistor) also has merit, as long as the *other volume pot* is not in the signal path when not selected.

    The short answer to the second question is basiclly no, the impedance drops off so it pushes the filter cutoff Fc higher, the doubling of the cap values bring it back down to were is was. the better trick is to set up one pup with one value cap (say a .01uF for a woman tone thing) and the other for a deeper cut, (say .033uF ) this give the same combined (roughly) value, as well as allowing two different resonant peak shifts when both pups are selected (one tone turn off will sound different than the other tone turned off, and both turned off will be a bit darker still). With both value equal the difference between one tone knob down and two down will be about 6dB ...subtle but noticeable ... the RES Fc Peak will shift however ...this can only really be gotten around by active buffering, or damping the resonant peak and reassigning the shelf cut off Fc and attenuation levels. Like the G&L ASAT for example. That's the short answer.

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  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by Kent S.

    Never thought about it,from a hum-cancelling standpoint that idea repulses me ... That's more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done with the addition of a on/off/on SPDT or DPDT switch to disable either split.
    That was in regard to the neck full/bridge split; neck split/bridge full combos ... my fingers got ahead of my mouth ... It would take an additional on/on/on DPDT switch to select either split active or both active. Still it's more trouble than it's worh in my opinion.

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  • idsnowdog
    Imperator of Indignation

  • idsnowdog
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Hooray Finaly a post with some replies! What was my question?

    Snowdog

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  • dr.barlo
    Mojo's Minions

  • dr.barlo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by ArtieToo
    Dadgummit . . . I keep forgetting that LP's have been wired this way for decades.

    One of these days I'll learn that "guitar electronics" ain't exactly the same as F-14 electronics.

    Leave a comment:

  • ArtieToo
    Peaveyologist

  • ArtieToo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by dr.barlo
    3 threads going on at the same time!

    Anyways, no problems in the middle position, because then it will be the good old LP middle position. And both of the tones at 10, there won't be that much of a loss of highs even with non-no load pots. How do I know, well have been playing LPs with that kinda wiring for quite a while now, like 10 years! I am getting old!

    B
    Dadgummit . . . I keep forgetting that LP's have been wired this way for decades.

    One of these days I'll learn that "guitar electronics" ain't exactly the same as F-14 electronics.

    Leave a comment:

  • dr.barlo
    Mojo's Minions

  • dr.barlo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by ArtieToo
    I think we accidently got on two separate tracks here, probably because of the way I posed my statement. What I meant was, that with the volume pots on zero, with my resistor mod, both volumes would be at halfway, regardless of whether they were audio taper or linear pots. At any pot setting other than zero, the taper will definitely be skewed one way or the other.

    Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)

    idsnowdog; Did we ever actually answer your original question all the way. We kinda got two threads going at once here.

    3 threads going on at the same time!

    Anyways, no problems in the middle position, because then it will be the good old LP middle position. And both of the tones at 10, there won't be that much of a loss of highs even with non-no load pots. How do I know, well have been playing LPs with that kinda wiring for quite a while now, like 10 years! I am getting old!

    B

    Leave a comment:

  • ArtieToo
    Peaveyologist

  • ArtieToo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by Kent S.
    Man, one look at the voltage divider equation will show you it will ...

    500k-A pot set a 5 ... CW~W:450k; W~Ground:50k ...RT:500k

    Voltage in 10V (why...it divides easy)... 10V(450k)/RT 500k= 9V which is the voltage DROP across the 450k ... 10V-9V= 1V ... 1V is 1/10 of 10V ... -20dB

    Roughly half as loud (we are dealing with voltage not power or current).

    500k-A pot set a 5 with 250K in series with the CCW lug to ground...
    CW~W:450k; W~Ground: 750k (50k of pot in series with 250k resistor).

    10V(450k)/RT 750k= 6V which again is the voltage drop across the 450k ... 10V-6V=4V ... 4V is 2/5 of 10V ... ~ -7.96dB ... not evenly remotely the same!
    I think we accidently got on two separate tracks here, probably because of the way I posed my statement. What I meant was, that with the volume pots on zero, with my resistor mod, both volumes would be at halfway, regardless of whether they were audio taper or linear pots. At any pot setting other than zero, the taper will definitely be skewed one way or the other.

    Kent; In regards to your last diagram for Dr. Barlo, am I correct that when he switches the 3-way to the middle position, (neck and bridge), that he'll have a considerable loss of treble? Due to both tone controls being connected in parallel? (I didn't notice anywhere that they might be no-load pots.)

    idsnowdog; Did we ever actually answer your original question all the way. We kinda got two threads going at once here.

    Leave a comment:

  • dr.barlo
    Mojo's Minions

  • dr.barlo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by Kent S.
    No, the bridge pup gets split also, you didn't say anything about not splitting it in the bridge only position , and when the phase switch is pulled it will select which coil is split (a side benefit), the phase of the pup will be reversed even in full mode, but you won't hear any difference unless it's combined with the other pup (this is normal of course).



    Never thought about it,from a hum-cancelling standpoint that idea repulses me ... That's more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done with the addition of a on/off/on SPDT or DPDT switch to disable either split.



    Yeah I think the dual volume in this set up will work out well ... Everything except for the neck only split and bridge only split will be hum-cancelling, they won't for obvious reasons ... man grab a compressor and try those as well, don't just let them go to waste.
    The more positions the better. So I can get the bridge split as well. Cool!

    Nevermind about the additional positions I indicated in the previous post. As I said in the edit part, screw them, I can get much more with the vol and tone controls anyway.

    And BTW I always thought tele mid position was series. It is great to learn things everyday, no?

    B

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  • dr.barlo
    Mojo's Minions

  • dr.barlo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by Kent S.
    That is a ground symbol ... that tells you to ground neck green, and ground that *B* lug on the first DPDT (one on left); have no idea what you are referring to in regard to the second (one on right) DPDT? The neck green doesn't connect to that at all (it goes to ground hence the symbol) ... Look closely at the legend at the upper left hand corner.
    Got it. As I said my head was spinning!

    B

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  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by dr.barlo
    One simple thing tho:

    The symbol generally used for ground designates the neck green in the diagram titled "Barlo's Bluesy Big Apple Boogie Machine"! Really sounds great man!

    Anyway lemme come back to the question: In the first DPDT that symbol says connect the neck green to B lug of the DPDT miniswitch labelling it as

    A D

    B E

    C F

    On the second DPDT it says connect it to A. I think one is a ground the other the neck green no? I think the drawing in the first DPDT one is wrong and B should be connected to ground; and in the second DPDT switch the drawing is right, that is A gets the neck green. No?

    Anyway my head is spining now!

    B
    That is a ground symbol ... that tells you to ground neck green, and ground that *B* lug on the first DPDT (one on left); have no idea what you are referring to in regard to the second (one on right) DPDT? The neck green doesn't connect to that at all (it goes to ground hence the symbol) ... Look closely at the legend at the upper left hand corner.
    Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist
    Last edited by Kent S.; 07-15-2004, 01:21 PM.

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  • Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist

  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    Originally posted by dr.barlo
    Kent,

    I am gonna be using 4c HBs no problems there.

    As far as I understand the positions will be: (remember the 3 way tele switch)

    1. Neck full HB position

    1.a. if the second DPDT switch is off it would be neck full HB

    1.b. if the second DPDT switch is only the neck will be split, no? Red and white of the bridge going to the second DPDT switch would not affect nothing, as the black of the bridge is inactive. No?

    2. middle position

    2.a. if both of the switches are off, then it would be the good old LP middle position with 2 tone 2 vol wiring.

    2.b. If the first DPDT switch is on and the second DPDT switch is off, then it would be the PG out of phase tone, still controlled by the 2 volumes and 2 tones.
    Yes to all the above ...

    2.c. If the first DPDT switch is off and the second DPDT on it would be in phase, both pickups split, series tone; like a good old tele middle position no? Humcancelling no?
    Yes, but the Tele position you refer to is parallel not series ... just so you know, yes hum-cancelling ...

    2.d. If the first and second DPDT switches are on, it would be out of phase split tone. Just like a mosquito, virtually not usable, but anyway maybe with the vol control something funky can be played, me thinks.
    Yeah, good for funk, blending the volumes will produce some cool tonal shades, try that sound with a compressor sometimes ... Hum-cancelling also.

    3. Bridge position: No matter whether or not the DPDT switches are on or off, it would be the full HB bridge tone!
    No, the bridge pup gets split also, you didn't say anything about not splitting it in the bridge only position , and when the phase switch is pulled it will select which coil is split (a side benefit), the phase of the pup will be reversed even in full mode, but you won't hear any difference unless it's combined with the other pup (this is normal of course).

    Very cool man very cool. I could not figure this out myself. Gotta admit it. I am thinking of using my excellent 8.40/8.00K PG set, and hence I don't care much for the individual split positions. The only thing that would make this whole wiring the best ever would be to be able to get (1) the neck split, bridge HB full and (2) neck full; the bridge split positions.

    But as it is it is excellent. The last thing would require another miniswitch no?
    Never thought about it,from a hum-cancelling standpoint that idea repulses me ... That's more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done with the addition of a on/off/on SPDT or DPDT switch to disable either split.

    EDIT: Now that I think, **** it! I already have the volume control on both of the pickups separately! Thus in the middle position, I could get more sparkle or depthness by playing with the volumes, instead of splitting only one of the HBs. Hence, this simply could be the most excellent wiring ever!

    Much obliged!

    B
    Yeah I think the dual volume in this set up will work out well ... Everything except for the neck only split and bridge only split will be hum-cancelling, they won't for obvious reasons ... man grab a compressor and try those as well, don't just let them go to waste.
    Kent S.
    Volume Enhanceologist
    Last edited by Kent S.; 07-15-2004, 01:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:

  • dr.barlo
    Mojo's Minions

  • dr.barlo
    replied
    Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

    One simple thing tho:

    The symbol generally used for ground designates the neck green in the diagram titled "Barlo's Bluesy Big Apple Boogie Machine"! Really sounds great man!

    Anyway lemme come back to the question: In the first DPDT that symbol says connect the neck green to B lug of the DPDT miniswitch labelling it as

    A D

    B E

    C F

    On the second DPDT it says connect it to A. I think one is a ground the other the neck green no? I think the drawing in the first DPDT one is wrong and B should be connected to ground; and in the second DPDT switch the drawing is right, that is A gets the neck green. No?

    Anyway my head is spining now!

    B

    Leave a comment:

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