Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys
thanks for your information about the pots. I'll chase up the sources you mention, particularly if you think they are better quality. Are you equating this to the difference between CTS and Gibson in relation to non DPDT pots?

Robert S. Have you noticed with your guitars with the Page wiring mod that you lose the highs when you turn down the volumes? This is definitely the case with the Page production model. Turning down the volume from 10 to 8 loses loads of highs. I'm wondering whether to put in a treble bleed capacitor to stop this. Have you any other solutions?
thanks

Ah, the differences shaft height aren't going to be any longer than normal non DPDT pots )I think they are a tad bit longer, but not much. Electronically, the cts pots are a 20% tolerance pot (don't know about gibby), and they are made very well. The DMZ custom taper pots have always been very close to their nameplate value ...whether this was luck of the draw or a matter of DMZ policy that I don't know about, the push/pulls though appeared to be 10% or better, the latest batch I got seemed to be 20% ... so, I don't know what's up there, they are made very well though, and much better than some of the all parts and stewmac ones that I have had in the past. The last ones that I got from stewmac were horridly cheap (this was years ago however),so I don't know what they currently offer.
I would call DMZ though and ask about the taper on the push/pulls however, as I have seen some marked a bit oddly. I was told they were audio taper, and have some in my guitars that appear to be such;however some newer ones appear to be linear taper? Like I said, I'd ask first.
The JP LP does have 300k linear volume pots though (I don't remember if the tones are specified ... I would imagine 500k audio taper there), so 500k push/pulls (if they are linear would work there nicely).
The question of the high end roll off, two things one does your guitar shut off when in the middle position (normal LP mode) and one volume is turned to *0*, if not then the volumes are wired as variable load volume controls, this will load a pup down, and you'll lose high end as you turn down,more so than normal. However all pups will lose high end as you turn down, the HPF is a viable option, but, try the '50's wiring first ... move the tone pot cap to the lug that does not connect to the pickup output this will reatin more highs as your guitar is turned down without actually boosting the highs.
I say try this first as it requires less work and no extra parts.

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

I don't care for the 50s wiring or treble pass caps on my guitars and I prefer the guitar to lose top end when I roll down the volume pots. That way I can warm up the guitar during less agressive or when clean and then rolling the volume up adds presence and bite to my lead work and other agressive passages. I control my overall levels from the amp and not at the guitar.

The 50s wiring or a 100 ohm resistor in parallel with a .001 mf cap across the #2 and #3 terminals of your volume pot will hold your top end in. Many guitar manufacturers simply bridge the #2 and #3 terminals with a .001 mf cap.

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Kent S. and Robert S. thanks for your replies. Personally I do prefer not to lose highs when I roll the volume back. This is particularly a problem on the neck pickup on the JPLP model as dropping the volume to 8 makes it incredibly muddy and the ceramics are bright pickups.
Kent S. the wiring diagram from Gibson says the volume and tone pots are 500k, so I definitely would use the mod you suggest or a treble bleed capacitor.
JUst out of interest do you know what the RS Premium Kit does as it suggests it overcomes the problems of the 50s wiring. what are those problems?

thanks again both of you

[Oldslowhand]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

This is the JP mod I used Sorry it's sideways but I still can't get a large enough image the right way up (for some reason the manage image rejects the the right way up !!!!) For the 50's mod I think you need to move the cap wire to the middle tag on the volume pots

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Oldslowhand
thanks for the diagram
After all your help folks I'm taking the guitar to the tech's on Thursday to get the job done

thanks to everyone

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

JUst out of interest do you know what the RS Premium Kit does as it suggests it overcomes the problems of the 50s wiring. what are those problems?

thanks again both of you

Not to dis any company, although I don't know 100% across the board specifics of what their answer is, from what I've been told from a few sources it's nothing spectacular and rather over priced (IMO).
My understanding is that it uses a HPF on at least the neck pup and has the pup outputs wired to the wipers, although this allows independent volume control of each pup, it also loads the pups down more the lower the volume is turned (although this may be an attractive quality at times as well).
I haven't seen their schematic(s) so I'm having to go on word of mouth here.
As far as problems, well I'm not sure what they are referring to here, aside from the fact that the tone controls do not cut as much highs when the volume control is lowered as it would when turned up. This generally lets you set your tone, and then the guitar brightens up as it is turned down, although some people may not want this. For someone who wants a bright clean sound to morph into a fat warm dirty sound these are really nice mods. I do agree with Robert though, I have a guitar set up to lose highs as well as retain them, there are times both come in handy.
I'd have to see a schematic from RS Guitarworks to comment further though; my advice try the '50s mod first (for reasons already explained in previous post), then try the RC filters across the volume pots. DMZ has one that works nicely for most audio-ish tapers, it's a 560pF cap in parallel with a 300k resistor, a plain 180pF cap works well also (the original PRS had this with 500k pots), go 220pF for a bit brighter, and 120pF for a bit less brightness.
Another thing that works well is to use a RC HPF on the neck volume, wired standard '60's/'70's tone wiring, pup to CW lug (standard); bridge wired '50's, pup wired to wiper (remember '50's wiring simply means that the tone pot connections (whether a cap end or wire) go to the lug on the volume pot that the pupdoes not connect to.

[Lightning]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The advantage to the 50's mod is your not losing 25% of your highs to ground (through the tone control) when the volume is turned down halfway and while I can't explain why the tone control sounds better (more open and natural…like the treble was decreased on the amp) to me it just does.

Disadvantages...some complain that there is not enough of treble role off on the tone controls and the tones do not work independently when using both pickups.

I used the HPF for 27 years...now I use the 50's mod.

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Ronno, I looked over the posted JP wiring schematic and it appears to be one of the many variations floating around on the internet. The posted schematic is not the same as the one Gibson uses and I cannot verify that the posted schematic will work the same.

The three things I look for when evaluting a JP schematic are the splits, the series/parallel switch and the three way toggle wiring. All three of these things differ from the Gibson schematic.

The Gibson JP wiring (GJP) uses a split to hot on the bridge pickup and a split to ground on the neck pickup. The posted schematic splits to hot in both cases. Using the GJP wiring the dual split will be hum cancelling, the posted schematic will not.

The series/parallel switch is wired differently than the GJP schematic as well. This is the most common area that most schematics vary from the GJP. I can't say that this schematic won't work, but it is different from the GJP and I am skeptical.

The third thing is the 3 way switch. The GJP wiring uses both output tabs wired seperately and not combined as the posted schematic shows. This is what causes the need for the series/parallel switch wiring to get changed and it does effect the operation of the guitar.

I'm not saying that the schematic won't work, but it won't operate the same as the GJP and I wouldn't trust or use it. Kent has a great set of diagrams for the GJP wiring and the original schematic (not a diagram) is available from the Gibson website and is downloadable. I highly suggest you get your schematic from one of those two sources.

[Oldslowhand]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Robert is right that the JP diagram I posted it is not the same as the Gibson one that kent uses and some of the combo's do come in a slightly differant order but all 21 combo's are in there and it has been fine in my Les Paul there is an issue with some three way switches(Epiphone) and this mod (so I am told) will work with these I have a list of the pull/push combo's and would be happy E-mail them to you if you PM me. Remebering the trouble I had finding a mod that worked I fully understand Robert's worry's about this one.I had wirerd this one into my guitar about 10 minutes before I recived Kent's And If I had not been in such a hurry Would have used that one but I was busy with an soldering iron.

Robert no offence taken I just could not work out the Gison site diagram that why I put this one onto SM style graphics.

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Robert S. - thanks for your concern and advice about the diagram that Oldslowhand posted from the SD site. I don't understand the technicalities in the way you do but I do want the mod to work in the way that the Gibson Page model did. This is to avoid bugs but mainly because I'm familiar with it and can use it quickly during a gig. I have the schematic from Gibson. I just hope the tech can understand it!

thanks to all for your time on this. I'll let you know how it works out!

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

You are welcome Ronno and again, Kent has a color diagram of the Gibby schematic. If I wasn't such a lazy bum, I'd dig it out of my old emails for you!

OSL, there is no possible way to offend me by sharing info and the great thing about this place is that we have far more than one way to skin a cat!

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Robert
thanks again
You might be interested in this.

http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T2203

This purports to show how Pagey's No. 2 is actually wired ( rather than the Gibson version).
I've found 3 separate magazine articles that show the 2 under pickguard switches and describe the switching as follows:
"the 2 under the pickguard allow series/parallel and in/out of phase switching.
The guitar has 4 push/pull pots. Two for coil-tapping. The tone pots allow series/parallel switching for individual pickups. There is also the facility to have all 4 coils in parallel, as if the guitar had 4 single coils."
I don't think the diagram reflects this description, if only because there are only 2 push-pull pots!
What effect on sound would switching individual pickups in series or parallel have? Four coils in parallel would give what sort of sound?

Ronno

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The individual pickups wired in series and connected in parallel is Std HB wiring and switching. Wiring the individual pickups in parallel and connecting them in parallel will offer a somewhat low output and mid cancelled (bright) tone that will be simular to what you get from a Tele with both pickups on.

It will be alot like both HBs on and split.

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

lRobert
Interesting
I really like the sound of a Tele in the middle position but a les paul, even with the all the switching options can't sound like every guitar out there!

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

It sounds like a Tele only because you have two singles with a wide spread, leaving more mids than a Strat #2 or #4 position.

I guess I should say Tele-ish, Tele-esque, Tele-kinda.

You get my point.