Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

JUst out of interest do you know what the RS Premium Kit does as it suggests it overcomes the problems of the 50s wiring. what are those problems?

thanks again both of you

Not to dis any company, although I don't know 100% across the board specifics of what their answer is, from what I've been told from a few sources it's nothing spectacular and rather over priced (IMO).
My understanding is that it uses a HPF on at least the neck pup and has the pup outputs wired to the wipers, although this allows independent volume control of each pup, it also loads the pups down more the lower the volume is turned (although this may be an attractive quality at times as well).
I haven't seen their schematic(s) so I'm having to go on word of mouth here.
As far as problems, well I'm not sure what they are referring to here, aside from the fact that the tone controls do not cut as much highs when the volume control is lowered as it would when turned up. This generally lets you set your tone, and then the guitar brightens up as it is turned down, although some people may not want this. For someone who wants a bright clean sound to morph into a fat warm dirty sound these are really nice mods. I do agree with Robert though, I have a guitar set up to lose highs as well as retain them, there are times both come in handy.
I'd have to see a schematic from RS Guitarworks to comment further though; my advice try the '50s mod first (for reasons already explained in previous post), then try the RC filters across the volume pots. DMZ has one that works nicely for most audio-ish tapers, it's a 560pF cap in parallel with a 300k resistor, a plain 180pF cap works well also (the original PRS had this with 500k pots), go 220pF for a bit brighter, and 120pF for a bit less brightness.
Another thing that works well is to use a RC HPF on the neck volume, wired standard '60's/'70's tone wiring, pup to CW lug (standard); bridge wired '50's, pup wired to wiper (remember '50's wiring simply means that the tone pot connections (whether a cap end or wire) go to the lug on the volume pot that the pupdoes not connect to.

 

[Lightning]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The advantage to the 50's mod is your not losing 25% of your highs to ground (through the tone control) when the volume is turned down halfway and while I can't explain why the tone control sounds better (more open and natural…like the treble was decreased on the amp) to me it just does.

Disadvantages...some complain that there is not enough of treble role off on the tone controls and the tones do not work independently when using both pickups.

I used the HPF for 27 years...now I use the 50's mod.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Ronno, I looked over the posted JP wiring schematic and it appears to be one of the many variations floating around on the internet. The posted schematic is not the same as the one Gibson uses and I cannot verify that the posted schematic will work the same.

The three things I look for when evaluting a JP schematic are the splits, the series/parallel switch and the three way toggle wiring. All three of these things differ from the Gibson schematic.

The Gibson JP wiring (GJP) uses a split to hot on the bridge pickup and a split to ground on the neck pickup. The posted schematic splits to hot in both cases. Using the GJP wiring the dual split will be hum cancelling, the posted schematic will not.

The series/parallel switch is wired differently than the GJP schematic as well. This is the most common area that most schematics vary from the GJP. I can't say that this schematic won't work, but it is different from the GJP and I am skeptical.

The third thing is the 3 way switch. The GJP wiring uses both output tabs wired seperately and not combined as the posted schematic shows. This is what causes the need for the series/parallel switch wiring to get changed and it does effect the operation of the guitar.

I'm not saying that the schematic won't work, but it won't operate the same as the GJP and I wouldn't trust or use it. Kent has a great set of diagrams for the GJP wiring and the original schematic (not a diagram) is available from the Gibson website and is downloadable. I highly suggest you get your schematic from one of those two sources.

 

[Oldslowhand]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Robert is right that the JP diagram I posted it is not the same as the Gibson one that kent uses and some of the combo's do come in a slightly differant order but all 21 combo's are in there and it has been fine in my Les Paul there is an issue with some three way switches(Epiphone) and this mod (so I am told) will work with these I have a list of the pull/push combo's and would be happy E-mail them to you if you PM me. Remebering the trouble I had finding a mod that worked I fully understand Robert's worry's about this one.I had wirerd this one into my guitar about 10 minutes before I recived Kent's And If I had not been in such a hurry Would have used that one but I was busy with an soldering iron.

Robert no offence taken I just could not work out the Gison site diagram that why I put this one onto SM style graphics.

 

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Robert S. - thanks for your concern and advice about the diagram that Oldslowhand posted from the SD site. I don't understand the technicalities in the way you do but I do want the mod to work in the way that the Gibson Page model did. This is to avoid bugs but mainly because I'm familiar with it and can use it quickly during a gig. I have the schematic from Gibson. I just hope the tech can understand it!

thanks to all for your time on this. I'll let you know how it works out!

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

You are welcome Ronno and again, Kent has a color diagram of the Gibby schematic. If I wasn't such a lazy bum, I'd dig it out of my old emails for you!

OSL, there is no possible way to offend me by sharing info and the great thing about this place is that we have far more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Robert
thanks again
You might be interested in this.
http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T2203
This purports to show how Pagey's No. 2 is actually wired ( rather than the Gibson version).
I've found 3 separate magazine articles that show the 2 under pickguard switches and describe the switching as follows:
"the 2 under the pickguard allow series/parallel and in/out of phase switching.
The guitar has 4 push/pull pots. Two for coil-tapping. The tone pots allow series/parallel switching for individual pickups. There is also the facility to have all 4 coils in parallel, as if the guitar had 4 single coils."
I don't think the diagram reflects this description, if only because there are only 2 push-pull pots!
What effect on sound would switching individual pickups in series or parallel have? Four coils in parallel would give what sort of sound?

Ronno

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The individual pickups wired in series and connected in parallel is Std HB wiring and switching. Wiring the individual pickups in parallel and connecting them in parallel will offer a somewhat low output and mid cancelled (bright) tone that will be simular to what you get from a Tele with both pickups on.

It will be alot like both HBs on and split.

 

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

lRobert
Interesting
I really like the sound of a Tele in the middle position but a les paul, even with the all the switching options can't sound like every guitar out there!

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

It sounds like a Tele only because you have two singles with a wide spread, leaving more mids than a Strat #2 or #4 position.

I guess I should say Tele-ish, Tele-esque, Tele-kinda.

You get my point.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The advantage to the 50's mod is your not losing 25% of your highs to ground (through the tone control) when the volume is turned down halfway and while I can't explain why the tone control sounds better (more open and natural…like the treble was decreased on the amp) to me it just does.

Disadvantages...some complain that there is not enough of treble role off on the tone controls and the tones do not work independently when using both pickups.

I used the HPF for 27 years...now I use the 50's mod.

The tone won't work independently anyway when combined, they may if the volumes are turned down, but not up (I've never turned the volumes down and tried it, but I'm fairly certain they won't be truely independent, I'm sure there will be some interaction). But with the '50's mod they are both hooked to the same point.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Concerning point A ... no, it more or less keeps the high intact, it will sound normal to your ears ... lets put it this way, you won't hear the highs being rolled off, maybe a little but not much ... any that do will sound normal, not muffled. The HPF set actually BOOSTS your highs when turned down, the highs are actually exaggerated ... true enough that if you futz with the cap and or resistors involved you can get a natural sounding effect (just enough to counter the effects of the roll off), but in general the HPF sounds like you turned down the guitar and added a treble boost.
Concerning point B ... the tone control do not act independent of each other anyway when the pups are combined with the volumes up, now again I've never tried it ... However if you lowered the volumes it would place a portion of the pot resistance between where the pups connect, and therefore isolate them from one another somewhat (stock gibby wiring) ... in the same sense that the '50's wiring works, it's working here to separate the two circuits from each other.
Concerning the third ... the Page wiring is made for the two set of controls to interact regardless, this again is part of the flexibility of that set up. I don't see you having any problems with either set up that you choose, like I said the baeuty of trying the '50's mod is that you only swap a connection (for each pup)if you don't like it it's real easy to swap back, and won't bother the rest of the wiring ... I just feel you should try that as it's easier than putting in a cap or cap and resistor and then removimg them.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Concerning point A ... no, it more or less keeps the high intact, it will sound normal to your ears ... lets put it this way, you won't hear the highs being rolled off, maybe a little but not much ... any that do will sound normal, not muffled. The HPF set actually BOOSTS your highs when turned down, the highs are actually exaggerated ... true enough that if you futz with the cap and or resistors involved you can get a natural sounding effect (just enough to counter the effects of the roll off), but in general the HPF sounds like you turned down the guitar and added a treble boost.
Concerning point B ... the tone control do not act independent of each other anyway when the pups are combined with the volumes up, now again I've never tried it ... However if you lowered the volumes it would place a portion of the pot resistance between where the pups connect, and therefore isolate them from one another somewhat (stock gibby wiring) ... in the same sense that the '50's wiring works, it's working here to separate the two circuits from each other.
Concerning the third ... the Page wiring is made for the two set of controls to interact regardless, this again is part of the flexibility of that set up. I don't see you having any problems with either set up that you choose, like I said the baeuty of trying the '50's mod is that you only swap a connection (for each pup)if you don't like it it's real easy to swap back, and won't bother the rest of the wiring ... I just feel you should try that as it's easier than putting in a cap or cap and resistor and then removing them.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

You are welcome Ronno and again, Kent has a color diagram of the Gibby schematic. If I wasn't such a lazy bum, I'd dig it out of my old emails for you!

He'd have to PM me with an e-mail address (ISP trackable of course), as the compressed folder is far to large and diagrams too large to try to post to the board ... Scott F. had it on his web site for a while availble for download, I don't know if he still does or not ... Robert mine contains the pictorial and also the original Gibson schematic and text explanation of the settings as well (provided to me very graciously by yourself no less ... Thank you again Robert ... ) I do have it however it's in the original Gibson colour code, but I can add the SD or DMZ colour codes as well.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

My advice will remain as such ... Get it wired up first, then futz around with the options of High Pass Filter or '50's Mod (and if so on what pup, nothing says both pups have to be wired the same), also whther you want each pup wired to be independent (to the wipers ) or standard (to the CW lugs) of the volume controls (again either or, both pups don't have to be wired the same) ... it's a pro and con thing that you can play around with after you get the switching wired up.

 

[Lightning]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T2203

This method requires no shaving wood for short shafts. The bridge vol & tone don't require the long shaft. The drawing shows the neck as being the push/pull and I'm sure that's in error.

Robert correct me if I'm wrong (otherwise have Forstner bit ready...Bring that guitar over here to da man with one metal front tooth...lol)

Guys I'd love to have a copy of the Gibson wiring regardless color code.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I'd love to have a copy of the Gibson wiring regardless color code.

Leave an e-mail address in my PM and I'll get the folder out to you same day. There is also a text description with performance notes concerning the neck pup's volume control's role in series mode, along with the toggle switches role. I also have all the pup combos laid out as well. There is both the standard symbolic schematic and a pictorial as well.

 

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Kent S. and Lightning
thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
How do I get this to you?
I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
Robert were yours log or linear?

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Kent S. and Lightning
thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
How do I get this to you?
I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
Robert were yours log or linear?

You can leave an e-mail address on my PM and I'll get a compressed folder out to you within 24hours, (I don't need the gibby stuff, I've already got it, but thanks).
Concerning the pot questions, to pot impedance won't effect the way it performs as a volume control (standard wiring) as it works off the ratio of the two resistances (voltage divider), so that won't, the taper will.
However, if the pups are wired to the wipers it may change the performance of the pots ... I've never really thought about it until just now, but the loading will be different.
Linears are better for making subtle gain changes, but they tend to not cut as much until turned way down. When turning up they tend to come up a bit aburptly and then not get too much louder per their travel. Put it this way, a linear pot turned down halfway is the same as an audio (commercial log) taper turned down one quarter; a linear turned down nine-tenths (from zero one-tenth up) is roughly the same as an audio turned halfway down.

IIRC the Gibby schematic calls for linear 500k pots, I would think that the clean up point is more a matter of your pups output. I do know that some manufacturer's use different pot taper codes, some use an in house code that gets interpreted differently by others. So what may be marked as B taper may not be a B taper. There is still confusion surrounding this issue, I like what Fender does where they list the percentage of the pot's total resistance traveled at the 50% rotation point ... they take say an audio taper an then spec it at 250k 10%, that's the standard audio taper two segment approximation, in contrast to 250k 30%, which is a bit more linear like (their midboost pots use that a lot). It still doesn't help you with compound taper pots, but it is more exact.
I wouldn't worry about it much though.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

500k analog dpdt push pulls.