Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

The advantage to the 50's mod is your not losing 25% of your highs to ground (through the tone control) when the volume is turned down halfway and while I can't explain why the tone control sounds better (more open and natural…like the treble was decreased on the amp) to me it just does.

Disadvantages...some complain that there is not enough of treble role off on the tone controls and the tones do not work independently when using both pickups.

I used the HPF for 27 years...now I use the 50's mod.

The tone won't work independently anyway when combined, they may if the volumes are turned down, but not up (I've never turned the volumes down and tried it, but I'm fairly certain they won't be truely independent, I'm sure there will be some interaction). But with the '50's mod they are both hooked to the same point.

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Concerning point A ... no, it more or less keeps the high intact, it will sound normal to your ears ... lets put it this way, you won't hear the highs being rolled off, maybe a little but not much ... any that do will sound normal, not muffled. The HPF set actually BOOSTS your highs when turned down, the highs are actually exaggerated ... true enough that if you futz with the cap and or resistors involved you can get a natural sounding effect (just enough to counter the effects of the roll off), but in general the HPF sounds like you turned down the guitar and added a treble boost.
Concerning point B ... the tone control do not act independent of each other anyway when the pups are combined with the volumes up, now again I've never tried it ... However if you lowered the volumes it would place a portion of the pot resistance between where the pups connect, and therefore isolate them from one another somewhat (stock gibby wiring) ... in the same sense that the '50's wiring works, it's working here to separate the two circuits from each other.
Concerning the third ... the Page wiring is made for the two set of controls to interact regardless, this again is part of the flexibility of that set up. I don't see you having any problems with either set up that you choose, like I said the baeuty of trying the '50's mod is that you only swap a connection (for each pup)if you don't like it it's real easy to swap back, and won't bother the rest of the wiring ... I just feel you should try that as it's easier than putting in a cap or cap and resistor and then removimg them.

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I really appreciate all your help with my queries. Unfortunately, I don't fully understand some of the technical terms you use so if you don't mind I'll try and check my understanding in a way that, hopefully, we can both get to grips with.
1. re the 50s wiring mod as a way of overcoming high frequency loss when the volumes are turned down.
If I understand what Kent and Lightning are saying
a) Although the volume controls don't lose as many highs when turned down, they still lose some. also there is an interactive effect with the tone controls in that when the volume is lowered the tone controls, if lowered, would not lose as much brightness as they would if the volume were on full. Is that right?
b) the tone controls would not work independently when using both pickups

If I've understood this correctly I'll have to go for the treble bleed capacitor option. I do want consistency in tone whatever the volume. The Page wiring means the tone and volume controls are extremely sensitive when in all the both pickups on settings (which is most of the switching options). Therefore having lack of independence in the tone controls could be problematic.

Concerning point A ... no, it more or less keeps the high intact, it will sound normal to your ears ... lets put it this way, you won't hear the highs being rolled off, maybe a little but not much ... any that do will sound normal, not muffled. The HPF set actually BOOSTS your highs when turned down, the highs are actually exaggerated ... true enough that if you futz with the cap and or resistors involved you can get a natural sounding effect (just enough to counter the effects of the roll off), but in general the HPF sounds like you turned down the guitar and added a treble boost.
Concerning point B ... the tone control do not act independent of each other anyway when the pups are combined with the volumes up, now again I've never tried it ... However if you lowered the volumes it would place a portion of the pot resistance between where the pups connect, and therefore isolate them from one another somewhat (stock gibby wiring) ... in the same sense that the '50's wiring works, it's working here to separate the two circuits from each other.
Concerning the third ... the Page wiring is made for the two set of controls to interact regardless, this again is part of the flexibility of that set up. I don't see you having any problems with either set up that you choose, like I said the baeuty of trying the '50's mod is that you only swap a connection (for each pup)if you don't like it it's real easy to swap back, and won't bother the rest of the wiring ... I just feel you should try that as it's easier than putting in a cap or cap and resistor and then removing them.

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

You are welcome Ronno and again, Kent has a color diagram of the Gibby schematic. If I wasn't such a lazy bum, I'd dig it out of my old emails for you!

He'd have to PM me with an e-mail address (ISP trackable of course), as the compressed folder is far to large and diagrams too large to try to post to the board ... Scott F. had it on his web site for a while availble for download, I don't know if he still does or not ... Robert mine contains the pictorial and also the original Gibson schematic and text explanation of the settings as well (provided to me very graciously by yourself no less ... Thank you again Robert ... ) I do have it however it's in the original Gibson colour code, but I can add the SD or DMZ colour codes as well.

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

My advice will remain as such ... Get it wired up first, then futz around with the options of High Pass Filter or '50's Mod (and if so on what pup, nothing says both pups have to be wired the same), also whther you want each pup wired to be independent (to the wipers ) or standard (to the CW lugs) of the volume controls (again either or, both pups don't have to be wired the same) ... it's a pro and con thing that you can play around with after you get the switching wired up.

[Lightning]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T2203

This method requires no shaving wood for short shafts. The bridge vol & tone don't require the long shaft. The drawing shows the neck as being the push/pull and I'm sure that's in error.

Robert correct me if I'm wrong (otherwise have Forstner bit ready...Bring that guitar over here to da man with one metal front tooth...lol)

Guys I'd love to have a copy of the Gibson wiring regardless color code.

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Guys I'd love to have a copy of the Gibson wiring regardless color code.

Leave an e-mail address in my PM and I'll get the folder out to you same day. There is also a text description with performance notes concerning the neck pup's volume control's role in series mode, along with the toggle switches role. I also have all the pup combos laid out as well. There is both the standard symbolic schematic and a pictorial as well.

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Kent S. and Lightning
thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
How do I get this to you?
I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
Robert were yours log or linear?

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Kent S. and Lightning
thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
How do I get this to you?
I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
Robert were yours log or linear?

You can leave an e-mail address on my PM and I'll get a compressed folder out to you within 24hours, (I don't need the gibby stuff, I've already got it, but thanks).
Concerning the pot questions, to pot impedance won't effect the way it performs as a volume control (standard wiring) as it works off the ratio of the two resistances (voltage divider), so that won't, the taper will.
However, if the pups are wired to the wipers it may change the performance of the pots ... I've never really thought about it until just now, but the loading will be different.
Linears are better for making subtle gain changes, but they tend to not cut as much until turned way down. When turning up they tend to come up a bit aburptly and then not get too much louder per their travel. Put it this way, a linear pot turned down halfway is the same as an audio (commercial log) taper turned down one quarter; a linear turned down nine-tenths (from zero one-tenth up) is roughly the same as an audio turned halfway down.

IIRC the Gibby schematic calls for linear 500k pots, I would think that the clean up point is more a matter of your pups output. I do know that some manufacturer's use different pot taper codes, some use an in house code that gets interpreted differently by others. So what may be marked as B taper may not be a B taper. There is still confusion surrounding this issue, I like what Fender does where they list the percentage of the pot's total resistance traveled at the 50% rotation point ... they take say an audio taper an then spec it at 250k 10%, that's the standard audio taper two segment approximation, in contrast to 250k 30%, which is a bit more linear like (their midboost pots use that a lot). It still doesn't help you with compound taper pots, but it is more exact.
I wouldn't worry about it much though.

[Robert S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

500k analog dpdt push pulls.

[Oldslowhand]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Wow! The JP mod always seems to generate a lot of posts I wonder if we could get Seymour Duncan to put a good one into their wireing diagrams site juat a thought although the name might need a change.

[ronno]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

Lightning
How do I get the Gibson wiring diagrams to you?
they are Adobe files and I don't know how to do it in the SD e-mail system
Ronno

[Oldslowhand]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

I don't know if this is any help but I've had a go at Kent's mod and Seymoured It perhaps Kent or Robert Could look it over for error's I can't see any but a new pair of eyes etc

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

500k analog dpdt push pulls.

Analogue? You don't say? ...

[Kent S.]

Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

I don't know if this is any help but I've had a go at Kent's mod and Seymoured It perhaps Kent or Robert Could look it over for error's I can't see any but a new pair of eyes etc

I'll have to come back to it when I'm fully awake, but all the coil assignments appear to be straight to the mark,along with the 3 way toggle.
It looks straight. For those that were sent my compressed folder, it has a text sheet with the SD colour code conversions ... the simple way is to wire the switches first, then add the pups last.