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Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

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  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Lightning
    Wasnít thinking of that myself, maybe PRS was but Burstbucker neck (typical offset is 1k ohms) to any balanced PU bridge BB hum isnít notable. I threw a hybrid together (offset 2.5k) and the hum was notable and if your humbucker spoiled an issue. Iím using coil to coil relationships in one housing to compare the inter coils in series or parallelÖall 4 coils on balances itself.
    Okay that's kinda how I thought you were thinking it, just checking ...

    [/quote]
    Two coils OOP in the same nodal (in the same housingÖneck or bridge) position have far greater cancellations than 3 Ĺ inches apart. Result is different output and tone.
    [quote]

    Well, yeah in the respect that they have closer common mode signals to be cancelled ... Different tone, output is probably more subjective on a pup by pup basis though (various models and mix and match).

    When you say strat series or para Iím not clear on if your saying neck mid or neck bridge.
    Don't know where the term mid came from, but what I mean is tele outer coils ( think tele middle position), and strat inner coils (reminiscent of the middle and bridge combo on a strat) ... series and parallel are self explanatory of course.

    Thatís the only thing that doesnít irritate me about it. Canít deal with the volume loss. I bought that switch prewired (sealed in silicon) and have no schematic. Not real interested in improving it (man that was closed minded). Hey man, not trying to be difficult. If thereís wiring combinations I havenít tried I need to try them, JP looks like an opportunity but I donít think I could use it live. Did you see that switching Artie did for that guy Eban. Four position rotary assigns the function of the LP 3 position (last forum). I talked to Eban a couple of weeks after he wired it and he said every combination was good to him. He ask for a lot of parallel stuff that I wasnít into but the concept of a fast action LP 3 position that was pre assigned by the rotary would work best for live performance. If you can have it all what good is it 3 beats late cause you have to hit 3 switches to get there. Between you and Artie and everyoneís crazy switch ideas I feel the next generation Lightning Mega Switch coming on!!! Oh yea, curios about the Hamer.
    Well the level differences can work for you or against you depending on what you are doing, and how you are using it. I know what you mean though in regard to filtering, I've got a Esquire mod that using the 3 way switch as mode switch (Full,Bright,Mid), but because of the level difference it must use an on board preamp ... other wise it would be like playing with your volume knob turned to 3 or so ...
    Nah I didn't catch that, to be honest though, all this stuff has been before anyway ... and it might sound pompous on my part, but I've pretty much explored all the options ... some just aren't that great and have been filed in the file known as *yeah, well ...If you actually want that, ... you can do that* type of thing. I'm not saying that I've covered every option available, but some are so problematic, and subtle in differences (read impractical and or not pragmatic) that alot of them get the scrap pile. On the Hamer I'd have to check with the owner as it was treated like an engineering and design contract between two parties, the ownership rights were deferred to me (as he put it, I did all the work ...I love it when people recognize that ... ); However, since it was his request I would have to check with him. It is nice to have things that only *you* have you know?
    Last edited by Kent S.; 07-31-2004, 04:23 PM.

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  • Lightning
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Kent S.
    Öpractical window that you can get away with in regard to hum-cancel ling issues ... That's what I as referring to.
    Wasnít thinking of that myself, maybe PRS was but Burstbucker neck (typical offset is 1k ohms) to any balanced PU bridge BB hum isnít notable. I threw a hybrid together (offset 2.5k) and the hum was notable and if your humbucker spoiled an issue. Iím using coil to coil relationships in one housing to compare the inter coils in series or parallelÖall 4 coils on balances itself.
    Originally posted by Kent S.
    Ö all four in series but O.O.P. with each other one would give you the same volume as the traditional reversed phase HB paralleled with the other
    Two coils OOP in the same nodal (in the same housingÖneck or bridge) position have far greater cancellations than 3 Ĺ inches apart. Result is different output and tone.
    Originally posted by Kent S.
    Ö have been a better road, say bridge, P.O.P.,series strat, parallel strat, parallel tele, neck ... or maybe bridge, series strat, parallel strat, parallel tele, series tele, neck ...
    When you say strat series or para Iím not clear on if your saying neck mid or neck bridge.
    Originally posted by Kent S.
    Ö The only thing that irritates me about the VT is that bypass position...
    Thatís the only thing that doesnít irritate me about it. Canít deal with the volume loss. I bought that switch prewired (sealed in silicon) and have no schematic. Not real interested in improving it (man that was closed minded). Hey man, not trying to be difficult. If thereís wiring combinations I havenít tried I need to try them, JP looks like an opportunity but I donít think I could use it live. Did you see that switching Artie did for that guy Eban. Four position rotary assigns the function of the LP 3 position (last forum). I talked to Eban a couple of weeks after he wired it and he said every combination was good to him. He ask for a lot of parallel stuff that I wasnít into but the concept of a fast action LP 3 position that was pre assigned by the rotary would work best for live performance. If you can have it all what good is it 3 beats late cause you have to hit 3 switches to get there. Between you and Artie and everyoneís crazy switch ideas I feel the next generation Lightning Mega Switch coming on!!! Oh yea, curios about the Hamer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Lightning
    Cause all 4 coils in series, in phase basically doubles the output.

    Anyhow all coils on in series amplitude is additive so it's twice the output (assuming both pickups have equal output and a bunch of other stuff we don't need to get into) of the individual pickups with their coils in series.

    So I think what PRS wasn't getting was that in my wiring each pickups coils were out of phase with each other then run in series or 2 humbuckers in series out of phase has close to the same output as an individual pickup.


    All 4 coils on in series...dude was adamant...you just don't do that.
    Okay, I missed the part where four coils were mentioned, yeah you are going to jump up in output, i thought he was referring to having all pups the exact same volume ... generally there is a practical window that you can get away with in regard to hum-cancellling issues ... That's what I as referring to.
    I might have told him to get rid of one of those parallel positions or go to 6 positions "how could you leave all four in series out of phase position out?"
    Again not sure what you're referring to here, the Power out of phase was done to give the out of phase sound with more output (as you know) if that's what you are referring to here... all four in series but O.O.P. with each other one would give you the same volume as the traditional reversed phase HB paralleled with the other (like reversing the phase on a pup and being in the middle position on a stock LP), but I don't think it would be hum-cancelling though I'd have to think about that ...
    Considering that the CRL switch that they used (now manufactured by ElectroSwitch) was a moddified 6 position switch made especailly for them I would seem to have been a better road, say bridge, P.O.P.,series strat, parallel strat, parallel tele, neck ... or maybe bridge, series strat, parallel strat, parallel tele, series tele, neck ...

    When my pickups were 2 conductor I used a six way...too many clicks (CTS switches I'm using cuts off (no audio) between positions so I went to 5. Then converted to 4 conductor and went to two 3 pole wafers, tried some wirings and settled on those 4 that I've been using for the past 14 years.

    It's a killer switch to me. Two vintage pickups, inside coils in series (now that's volume balanced) and position 4 is like a Duncan Distortion or a wah turned on and left in the treble position...yea man.

    I didn't think about after market pickups again till last year when I bought a guitar with a 3 position toggle and I kinda reverted to Leo's individual pickup mentality (he didn't like positions 2 and 4) .

    The JP wiring sorta takes what if to the extreme but the lesson positions 2 and 3 on the Night Hawk taught me (killer rythem tones) is if you haven't tried it you may be missing some thing.
    Yeah the VT circuit is cool, and both the Lucille and the Bluehawk versions of it, I prefer to have a lot more notch than what those are capable of though but their design doesn't allow that, no big the circuit is easy enough to build.
    The only thing that irritates me about the VT is that bypass position, on the Lucille I see it's use, on the Blueshawk (considering it has that push/pull to bypass it) I don't see it, they could have included a 6th position, plus that rotary swith they use is the ugliest piece of junk I've ever seen ...

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  • Lightning
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Cause all 4 coils in series, in phase basically doubles the output.

    Now that I've thought about it Santana was using all 4 coils in series in phase on Black Magic Woman then the L6 came out and he was playing one.

    Anyhow all coils on in series amplitude is additive so it's twice the output (assuming both pickups have equal output and a bunch of other stuff we don't need to get into) of the individual pickups with their coils in series.

    So I think what PRS wasn't getting was that in my wiring each pickups coils were out of phase with each other then run in series or 2 humbuckers in series out of phase has close to the same output as an individual pickup.


    All 4 coils on in series...dude was adamant...you just don't do that.

    I might have told him to get rid of one of those parallel positions or go to 6 positions "how could you leave all four in series out of phase position out?"

    When my pickups were 2 conductor I used a six way...too many clicks (CTS switches I'm using cuts off (no audio) between positions so I went to 5. Then converted to 4 conductor and went to two 3 pole wafers, tried some wirings and settled on those 4 that I've been using for the past 14 years.

    It's a killer switch to me. Two vintage pickups, inside coils in series (now that's volume balanced) and position 4 is like a Duncan Distortion or a wah turned on and left in the treble position...yea man.

    I didn't think about after market pickups again till last year when I bought a guitar with a 3 position toggle and I kinda reverted to Leo's individual pickup mentality (he didn't like positions 2 and 4) .

    The JP wiring sorta takes what if to the extreme but the lesson positions 2 and 3 on the Night Hawk taught me (killer rythem tones) is if you haven't tried it you may be missing some thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Lightning
    Kent, thanks for the info. Inspired my new avatar although it was an Electra MPC or the L6s (not sure now) that actually inspired wiring this guitar back in '76. Pickups and rotary switch wiring have changed over the years...This wiring was unapproved by PRS him self (I met him when he was on tour promoting the PRS amp) who said it wouldn't work and explained that I should use his pickup combinations and wrote them down for me. Finally I ask why it wouldn't work, he responded that the volume has to be balenced in each switch position of a production guitar...My wiring is balenced in every position. I don't like the varitone but some push/pulls and that stock toggle...could really open up some.

    Thanks Chuck
    I don't know what he is referring to by having to have the volumes balanced, they have to be roughly the same volume to make the most of the hum-cancelling thing, and to get the true sound of the two coils (an even mix),and of the correct magnetic polarities, but it will work ... You lost me on that. Not sure whay you or he was referring to there.
    I've met and spoke with him breifly a few times as well, never got time to delve into anything technical though. The PRS amps were made by Pritchard Amps ... look them up as the guy still has the schematics available if anyone needs them, and he has some nice amps of his named line. Concerning the varitone the real way is to make it variable in it's attenuation level.
    I put together a custom schematic for a forum member that incorporates the more useable (higher output) settings of the JP without some of the others.
    It was set up for (three control Hamer Special) two volumes and one tone (could be adapted the other way certainly) all push/pull DPDT pots, and a 3 way LP switch ... that would leave one control open for a varitone, or other control of choice.

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  • Lightning
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Kent, thanks for the info. Inspired my new avatar although it was an Electra MPC or the L6s (not sure now) that actually inspired wiring this guitar back in '76. Pickups and rotary switch wiring have changed over the years...This wiring was unapproved by PRS him self (I met him when he was on tour promoting the PRS amp) who said it wouldn't work and explained that I should use his pickup combinations and wrote them down for me. Finally I ask why it wouldn't work, he responded that the volume has to be balenced in each switch position of a production guitar...My wiring is balenced in every position. I don't like the varitone but some push/pulls and that stock toggle...could really open up some.

    Thanks Chuck

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  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Oldslowhand
    I don't know if this is any help but I've had a go at Kent's mod and Seymoured It perhaps Kent or Robert Could look it over for error's I can't see any but a new pair of eyes etc
    I'll have to come back to it when I'm fully awake, but all the coil assignments appear to be straight to the mark,along with the 3 way toggle.
    It looks straight. For those that were sent my compressed folder, it has a text sheet with the SD colour code conversions ... the simple way is to wire the switches first, then add the pups last.

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  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Robert S.
    500k analog dpdt push pulls.
    Analogue? You don't say? ...

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  • Oldslowhand
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    I don't know if this is any help but I've had a go at Kent's mod and Seymoured It perhaps Kent or Robert Could look it over for error's I can't see any but a new pair of eyes etc

    Leave a comment:


  • ronno
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Lightning
    How do I get the Gibson wiring diagrams to you?
    they are Adobe files and I don't know how to do it in the SD e-mail system
    Ronno

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  • Oldslowhand
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Wow! The JP mod always seems to generate a lot of posts I wonder if we could get Seymour Duncan to put a good one into their wireing diagrams site juat a thought although the name might need a change.

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  • Robert S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    500k analog dpdt push pulls.

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  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by ronno
    Kent S. and Lightning
    thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
    How do I get this to you?
    I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
    The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
    Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
    Robert were yours log or linear?
    You can leave an e-mail address on my PM and I'll get a compressed folder out to you within 24hours, (I don't need the gibby stuff, I've already got it, but thanks).
    Concerning the pot questions, to pot impedance won't effect the way it performs as a volume control (standard wiring) as it works off the ratio of the two resistances (voltage divider), so that won't, the taper will.
    However, if the pups are wired to the wipers it may change the performance of the pots ... I've never really thought about it until just now, but the loading will be different.
    Linears are better for making subtle gain changes, but they tend to not cut as much until turned way down. When turning up they tend to come up a bit aburptly and then not get too much louder per their travel. Put it this way, a linear pot turned down halfway is the same as an audio (commercial log) taper turned down one quarter; a linear turned down nine-tenths (from zero one-tenth up) is roughly the same as an audio turned halfway down.

    IIRC the Gibby schematic calls for linear 500k pots, I would think that the clean up point is more a matter of your pups output. I do know that some manufacturer's use different pot taper codes, some use an in house code that gets interpreted differently by others. So what may be marked as B taper may not be a B taper. There is still confusion surrounding this issue, I like what Fender does where they list the percentage of the pot's total resistance traveled at the 50% rotation point ... they take say an audio taper an then spec it at 250k 10%, that's the standard audio taper two segment approximation, in contrast to 250k 30%, which is a bit more linear like (their midboost pots use that a lot). It still doesn't help you with compound taper pots, but it is more exact.
    I wouldn't worry about it much though.

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  • ronno
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Kent S. and Lightning
    thanks again for all your input. I'm happy to send to you what Gibson sent to me electronically. It should be the same as you have already Kent, but who knows?!
    How do I get this to you?
    I'm taking my guitar to the tech tonight so a quick final check on the wiring would be helpful.
    The other niggling doubt I have is that the Gibson schematic says the pots are all 500k linear taper but when I've played the Page model the volumes certainly don't behave like linear pots, they clean up at about 2/3 on the volume. In contrast my Standard, on the same amp settings wouldn't clean up at 2. Or might this be the difference between 500k and 300k pots?
    Would it cause any problems putting 500k log rather than linear pots in?
    Robert were yours log or linear?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kent S.
    replied
    Re: Jimmy Page Wiring Modification

    Originally posted by Lightning

    Guys I'd love to have a copy of the Gibson wiring regardless color code.
    Leave an e-mail address in my PM and I'll get the folder out to you same day. There is also a text description with performance notes concerning the neck pup's volume control's role in series mode, along with the toggle switches role. I also have all the pup combos laid out as well. There is both the standard symbolic schematic and a pictorial as well.

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