Difference between original JB and current JB?

Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Dunno kiddo, maybe 2 different pickups were... different. Its called production tolerances it happens with everything. Even among pickups made now 2 of the same model rarely sound 100% identical.

Wouldn't those same production tolerances apply to a pickup with butyrate bobbins? For me it would be hard to pin point the difference in tone on the fact that it uses butyrate instead of polycarbonate... there are many more factors that could make it sound slightly different besides the bobbin material. Not saying it can't or doesn't effect tone because I honestly don't know but there are so many more factors that we do know for sure affect tone... and focusing on something as miniscule as this seems like a waste of time... Just my two cents...
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Wouldn't those same production tolerances apply to a pickup with butyrate bobbins? For me it would be hard to pin point the difference in tone on the fact that it uses butyrate instead of polycarbonate... there are many more factors that could make it sound slightly different besides the bobbin material. Not saying it can't or doesn't effect tone because I honestly don't know but there are so many more factors that we do know for sure affect tone... and focusing on something as miniscule as this seems like a waste of time... Just my two cents...

Its not hard to isolate... you might have tolerances but you also know there are low and high tolerances. When you listen to pickups across a range and you can find a certain different quality in them despite the tolerances then you can reasonably prescribe them to the change you've made. You cant do this with only 2 you need to a series to be able to do it. Like i said before it would be impossible for a person to only hear a pickup and say "thats butyrate" But if you can hear a series of pickups with them compared to a like series without you can isolate a difference.

Heres the thing you think its a waste of time. There are builders out there who have made focusing on these details their business. Many people like to slag Throbak but i will tell you this he does his homework. He knows the ins and outs down to the velocity of a gnats fart. The people who buy pickups from guys like him or Tom Holmes they love it they look for it. Me I admire his dedication to it. He never settles for "good enough" it must be right.

Even them I didnt make this an issue I merely stated that its one difference between a new and an old JB. Which is a fact and cant be disputed. We get told all the time the JB never changed and a material change is still a change even if it has a zero to minor effect on tone its still a change.

It was the other guys who took offense at me bringing into the discussion.

For some guys good enough is ok and there is nothing wrong with that. Its also ok if you want more.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

I don't think sound difference from different materials for the bobbin (or base for that matter) are caused by production tolerances. There's no way that mass-produced plastic molds come out different enough.

I am more aiming at mechanical effects. Coils moving or even deforming slightly as the guitar vibrates are important. And very hard to measure. Different plastics have very different elasticity.

Remember it doesn't matter whether the string moves relative to the pickup or a part of the pickup moves. Both induce AC voltage around the vibration rate. The vibration rate of course being musical notes (well, most of the time), not some abstract frequency you can't hear.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

FWFW, I'm picking tires so I have plastic differences all swapped in. Much easier to observe directly there.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

I don't think sound difference from different materials for the bobbin (or base for that matter) are caused by production tolerances. There's no way that mass-produced plastic molds come out different enough.

I am more aiming at mechanical effects. Coils moving or even deforming slightly as the guitar vibrates are important. And very hard to measure. Different plastics have very different elasticity.

Remember it doesn't matter whether the string moves relative to the pickup or a part of the pickup moves. Both induce AC voltage around the vibration rate. The vibration rate of course being musical notes (well, most of the time), not some abstract frequency you can't hear.
You just made me think of a really crazy experiment...

Get something that could oscillate a wired pickup back and forth over a very small space above a set of stationary strings and have it adjustable by frequency. I wonder what it would sound like, considering normally all 6 strings would never vibrate at the same frequency.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

I don't think sound difference from different materials for the bobbin (or base for that matter) are caused by production tolerances.

I know i didnt specify but when I said production tolerances I was speaking about differences in the wind, wire thickness and magnet charge. Not so much dimensional variances from one bobbin to another.

The butyrate deforming is the theory behind the sonic differences in bobbin materials...
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

You just made me think of a really crazy experiment...

Get something that could oscillate a wired pickup back and forth over a very small space above a set of stationary strings and have it adjustable by frequency. I wonder what it would sound like, considering normally all 6 strings would never vibrate at the same frequency.

An even oscillation would be like a vibrator pedal.

My best way to find out how much these mechanical effects matter is making a more and more loose setup until you clearly hear it. Of course now you have to worry about feedback, but then feedback is important, too.

I think most people here agree that well-sounding Stratocasters tend to be pretty floppy overall, including pickups and pickguard. The more you have happening the more interesting the sound.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Its not hard to isolate... you might have tolerances but you also know there are low and high tolerances. When you listen to pickups across a range and you can find a certain different quality in them despite the tolerances then you can reasonably prescribe them to the change you've made. You cant do this with only 2 you need to a series to be able to do it. Like i said before it would be impossible for a person to only hear a pickup and say "thats butyrate" But if you can hear a series of pickups with them compared to a like series without you can isolate a difference.

Heres the thing you think its a waste of time. There are builders out there who have made focusing on these details their business. Many people like to slag Throbak but i will tell you this he does his homework. He knows the ins and outs down to the velocity of a gnats fart. The people who buy pickups from guys like him or Tom Holmes they love it they look for it. Me I admire his dedication to it. He never settles for "good enough" it must be right.

Even them I didnt make this an issue I merely stated that its one difference between a new and an old JB. Which is a fact and cant be disputed. We get told all the time the JB never changed and a material change is still a change even if it has a zero to minor effect on tone its still a change.

It was the other guys who took offense at me bringing into the discussion.

For some guys good enough is ok and there is nothing wrong with that. Its also ok if you want more.

I don't think it's a waste of time to use those materials. Mostly just trying to compare them to a different material tone wise when under normal circumstances no one could ever hear the difference. Any difference IMHO would be attributed to said production tolerances and not necessarily because of the material of the bobbin itself. There are a lot more factors that shape the tone is really what I'm saying and the bobbin material is very low on the list as far as I'm concerned. Granted that's just my opinion as an amateur winder that does it mostly for fun.
 
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Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

It's no secret that the bobbin material tests I performed while at SD are what led to choosing a glass-filled nylon for the Zephyr Silver project. Bobbin material matters. If you believe the difference is so small that it is not worth being concerned with, that is fine. I can't argue against that. I can only correct someone if they say there is no scientific evidence that bobbin material changes the tone. Bobbin materials have different dielectric qualities, the stiffness influences microphony, and their elasticity can influence tension.

So let's think about what we're saying. Seymour Duncan (the man) is telling you that, with pickups like the Seth Lover and Antiquity for example, that materials matter. If they didn't matter, the Seth Lover would be wound on polycarbonate bobbins. "Materials matter" is part of the company's legacy. The same message remains consistent with the Antiquity JB/Jazz.

Without getting into the actual differences, yes old JB's sound different in my experiences. Sometimes they ONLY sound as different as the tolerances between two new JB's. So buying an old one on eBay is no guarantee that you'll have a holy grail JB. It's probably safer (and cheaper) to start with an Antiquity JB. But yes, just like PAF's, there are old JB's that are so good it's scary. (And I happen to own some :) )
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

To be clear, the OP was asking about the pickup Jeff Beck received vs the "production" JB. To answer his questions more precisely:

- Yes, the production JB uses the same type of wire on each coil.
- Yes, Jeff Beck's original prototype pickup had an A2 in it.
- "Why" were changes made to the original design? You'd have to ask Seymour! There may have been additional characteristics Seymour desired or considerations surrounding the actual production of the pickup (maybe he got a better deal on A5 magnets!).

Edgecrusher, there's no arguing that the material composition of the JB has changed notably since the early days. However, how much these changes audibly affect the end signal is largely debatable, as you said. After all, the core wire type and wind geometry has remained the same.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the idea that the presence of butyrate bobbins and maple spacers contribute to an audible difference that 99.9999% of us could hear in a proper blind test.

Also, does a minute, merely potential variation in coil geometry due to wire theoretically "squeezing" the core of a butyrate bobbin overpower the affects of more prominent variations in wire tolerance, magnet types and pole piece materials? I strongly doubt it. Besides, you'd have to induce quite a bit of tension to start deforming butyrate significantly and the JB uses a much thinner wire (44 gauge) than even PAF types (42 gauge), meaning that it can't resist as much tension and certainly can't do so without stretching undesirably, which poses another issue in regards to consistency.

Like you, I do suspect that the pole piece composition has changed over time. We already know that magnet suppliers changed over time and that the exact composition between magnet lots, even from the same supplier, could vary. I see no reason why this couldn't be true of the hard parts over the years, such as the slugs and screws. Additionally, magnet wire can have a large variance between production lots and, back in the early years, SD didn't have the testing processes in place to insure consistency of the wire like it does now. Yet, despite the process improvements, you still see production "tolerance" being a concern even today.

Wax potting of butyrate vs polycarbonate is also a hotly debated topic...

So, what really separates an "old" JB from a newer one? Is it the species of wood used for the spacer? Is it the density of the pole screws? Is it the longer mounting legs or the unique "life" the pickup has led over the past 35 years?

There's no single factor. But, for all these variables, the JB's sound remains largely unchanged and I think that's what ACE was getting at.

If you want the absolute closest thing to the "old school" JB, the 35th Anniversary is your best bet. If you want to recreate the pickup Jeff Beck received in his Tele-Gib, the Concept JB is the one you need.

Thanks. That's what I meant, but I guess wasn't that clear about. The original (made for Jeff Beck) JB was different than what Seymour decided to put into production and I was curious about what the deal was. I've never used a JB in my personal guitars, but I've been reading and listening to various samples lately that piqued my interest.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

It's no secret that the bobbin material tests I performed while at SD are what led to choosing a glass-filled nylon for the Zephyr Silver project. Bobbin material matters. If you believe the difference is so small that it is not worth being concerned with, that is fine. I can't argue against that. I can only correct someone if they say there is no scientific evidence that bobbin material changes the tone. Bobbin materials have different dielectric qualities, the stiffness influences microphony, and their elasticity can influence tension.

So let's think about what we're saying. Seymour Duncan (the man) is telling you that, with pickups like the Seth Lover and Antiquity for example, that materials matter. If they didn't matter, the Seth Lover would be wound on polycarbonate bobbins. "Materials matter" is part of the company's legacy. The same message remains consistent with the Antiquity JB/Jazz.

Without getting into the actual differences, yes old JB's sound different in my experiences. Sometimes they ONLY sound as different as the tolerances between two new JB's. So buying an old one on eBay is no guarantee that you'll have a holy grail JB. It's probably safer (and cheaper) to start with an Antiquity JB. But yes, just like PAF's, there are old JB's that are so good it's scary. (And I happen to own some :) )

Great post Frank. I'll also vouch for Frank's ears. He has an old butyrate JB that sounds killer...and being it's double creme makes it sound THAT much better! In fact, wasn't there somebody who borrowed that pickup for some type of sound test a while back because it sounded SO good?

Just throwing this in here to show you guys the biggest change, IMO of course. The rough cast magnet makes for an overall smoother and rounder sound.

Additionally mine has a DCR that measures out significantly lower than the published specs. I think there is a good chance that there is a good chance that the tightness/looseness of the overall coil structure changed at some point allowing for the different DCR, but most importantly the number of winds stayed the same. This kept the JB the "same pickup" but from a literal point of view, but a different pickup from a tonal point of view. The new ones seem more strident and more focused and less sweet on the high end to my ears.
 
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