The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

[ItsaBass]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

If anything, it would theoretically be an improvement on a regular JB, for me at least. Less wire + mismatched coils are good things for high output pickups. They tend to sound congested IME, unless played through 100W amps, or amps with lots of headroom.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Any of these will have a noticeable affect on the resulting tonality of that coil.

Tonality - the character of a piece of music as determined by the key in which it is played or the relations between the notes of a scale or key.

The coil is major or minor?! :nana:

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Fair enough...I guess nobody in the pickup lounge is allowed to use the term "tone" anymore

 

[Discharged]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

You can't overlook the possibility that it was simply underwound.

As at the time this p'up was made were no model with the number of turns that will result of that DC reading with the AWG# wire used, I surely can. Did you measure both bobbin's thickness with a caliper? If one is noticeable smaller that the other, then that would be a possibility. If both are just about the same, then it'll indicate a JB and Custom bobbin, as both are almost the same in thickness, due to the different wire's gauge. In some cases,a precision scale could also be used, but only if the coils are non-potted, which I don't think's the case here.

There are no signs of tampering with this pickup.

Are you sure you've seen enough p'ups to recognize all the tempering/reworking signs? Doing forensic evaluations is an art in itself, and not really an easy task, specially if you don't know how's the workflow that made the specific p'up the way it does. Some you see, some you don't and you need to take educated guesses all the time. Being the curator of about 60 to 80 vintage instruments that I setup and prepare for a show every year for over 15 years has given me the opportunity to learn about doing "forensics". Tempering affects the resale value those instruments, so when in doubt, I consult with others, and I do it quite often. In my neck woods, the other luthiers and collectionists are a helpful bunch, thank god!

No signs that is has been rewired

And what exactly are those signs? That would entail that you've taken it apart... and I, even with over five hundred p'ups looked at, and over two hundred rewinds made, if done by somebody with good soldering and p'up assembling skills, it would be virtually impossible to notice. But I giving you the benefit of the doubt.

the tape has never been removed

If you apply new tape of the same type, no signs can be seen.

the bobbin mounting screws have clearly not been tampered with,

That would entail that you had taken apart the p'up... did you?

How this pickup sits is the way it left Seymour's own hands...

Seymour didn't wind that p'up himself. JB coils are wound in one of the CNC winders and assembled in the assembling floor, a part of the factory he never worked on.

How and when did you get that p'up? Was a second-hand one or a new one from a music shop? BTW, which coil is which? The more I see it, the more I'm leaning to be an odd bird, rather than a reworked one, although, after giving a 2nd look at the picture, the wire coming out of the p'up looks more like the one sold by StewMac, rather then the one Duncan uses.

/Peter

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Fair enough...I guess nobody in the pickup lounge is allowed to use the term "tone" anymore

Wat? Tone means tone.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

As at the time this p'up was made were no model with the number of turns that will result of that DC reading with the AWG# wire used, I surely can. Did you measure both bobbin's thickness with a caliper? If one is noticeable smaller that the other, then that would be a possibility. If both are just about the same, then it'll indicate a JB and Custom bobbin, as both are almost the same in thickness, due to the different wire's gauge. In some cases,a precision scale could also be used, but only if the coils are non-potted, which I don't think's the case here.

Are you sure you've seen enough p'ups to recognize all the tempering/reworking signs? Doing forensic evaluations is an art in itself, and not really an easy task, specially if you don't know how's the workflow that made the specific p'up the way it does. Some you see, some you don't and you need to take educated guesses all the time. Being the curator of about 60 to 80 vintage instruments that I setup and prepare for a show every year for over 15 years has given me the opportunity to learn about doing "forensics". Tempering affects the resale value those instruments, so when in doubt, I consult with others, and I do it quite often. In my neck woods, the other luthiers and collectionists are a helpful bunch, thank god!

And what exactly are those signs? That would entail that you've taken it apart... and I, even with over five hundred p'ups looked at, and over two hundred rewinds made, if done by somebody with good soldering and p'up assembling skills, it would be virtually impossible to notice. But I giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If you apply new tape of the same type, no signs can be seen.

That would entail that you had taken apart the p'up... did you?

Seymour didn't wind that p'up himself. JB coils are wound in one of the CNC winders and assembled in the assembling floor, a part of the factory he never worked on.

How and when did you get that p'up? Was a second-hand one or a new one from a music shop? BTW, which coil is which? The more I see it, the more I'm leaning to be an odd bird, rather than a reworked one, although, after giving a 2nd look at the picture, the wire coming out of the p'up looks more like the one sold by StewMac, rather then the one Duncan uses.

/Peter

My god, man. Have you checked your blood pressure lately? I'm worried for you...

1) I did not pull the pickup apart completely to measure the thickness of the windings on each coil. You're just going to have to deal with a little mystery there for now. Besides, winding thickness may not be as accurate an indicator as you propose, particularly if the discrepancy was caused from improper tension on the wire initially.

2) Hands down, I've bought and sold more pickups than most people here. More than a thousand used Duncans alone! Each one cleaned, tested and inspected by me. I've also owned more '70s-era Duncans than likely anyone here and more of these first-gen "The JB Model" pickups than 99.9999999% of players anywhere. If it helps ease your mind as to competence (which you seem to question regularly), I was a lead quality control inspector for a military-contracted electronics component procurement firm in the very recent past. My job was to find counterfeits and tampered parts of all sorts. I have an eye for details few others have, which is why I was the best. I have also wound pickups, so I understand the workflow.

3) Tape is original. If it was rewound anytime in the past 25 years, it would be obvious to me. If the original tape had been reused/re-wrapped at some point, there would also be signs to someone who knows what to look for.

4) Bobbin mounting screws are still sealed by the original wax at the base and there is wax in the heads of the screws. No signs that it has ever been re-potted, wax is nicely aged throughout. No markings inside the heads from prior removal, either. Taking apart the pickup, as you suggested here, would be counter-productive to determining if the mounting screws had ever been removed.

5) I said left his hands. The pickup didn't put itself together. Furthermore, the machine winders used during this generation are now employed by the Custom Shop and not found on the regular production floor. A lot changed in Duncan-land after the early days of the 1970s.

6) Your presumptions about the lead wire being "Stew-Mac" shows just how little experience you have with this particular generation of pickups. Best to leave the authenticity analysis up to people like me who actually have experience with and an interest in this particular era of Duncans and have other pickups from this era to compare it to.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

^You've got 15 years of experience doing guitar repairs, setups for major recording bands?

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Huh? Was that directed at me?

If so, doing setups for bands and being intimately familiar with a particular generation of pickup that most people have never had their hands on, let alone spent time with or have multiple examples to compare, are two very different qualifications

 

[Discharged]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

My god, man. Have you checked your blood pressure lately? I'm worried for you...

1) I did not pull the pickup apart completely to measure the thickness of the windings on each coil. You're just going to have to deal with a little mystery there for now. Besides, winding thickness may not be as accurate an indicator as you propose, particularly if the discrepancy was caused from improper tension on the wire initially.

2) Hands down, I've bought and sold more pickups than most people here. More than a thousand used Duncans alone! Each one cleaned, tested and inspected by me. I've also owned more '70s-era Duncans than likely anyone here and more of these first-gen "The JB Model" pickups than 99.9999999% of players anywhere. If it helps ease your mind as to competence (which you seem to question regularly), I was a lead quality control inspector for a military-contracted electronics component procurement firm in the very recent past. My job was to find counterfeits and tampered parts of all sorts. I have an eye for details few others have, which is why I was the best. I have also wound pickups, so I understand the workflow.

3) Tape is original. If it was rewound anytime in the past 25 years, it would be obvious to me. If the original tape had been reused/re-wrapped at some point, there would also be signs to someone who knows what to look for.

4) Bobbin mounting screws are still sealed by the original wax at the base and there is wax in the heads of the screws. No signs that it has ever been re-potted, wax is nicely aged throughout. No markings inside the heads from prior removal, either. Taking apart the pickup, as you suggested here, would be counter-productive to determining if the mounting screws had ever been removed.

5) I said left his hands. The pickup didn't put itself together. Furthermore, the machine winders used during this generation are now employed by the Custom Shop and not found on the regular production floor. A lot changed in Duncan-land after the early days of the 1970s.

6) Your presumptions about the lead wire being "Stew-Mac" shows just how little experience you have with this particular generation of pickups. Best to leave the authenticity analysis up to people like me who actually have experience with and an interest in this particular era of Duncans and have other pickups from this era to compare it to.

Copy that. We agree in everything but the coil thickness in this specific case but, as you haven't unassembled it, you can't obviously have a definitive answer it, so it's more than ok.

It's always good to know who you're talking to and how really knowledgeable a person is. Until now, I had no real way to know. Snark put aside, thank you for answering my questions the way you did.

Yours very truly,

/Peter

 

[JimiTheFoot]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Phineas covered this 3 years ago.

http://darthphineas.com/2016/11/seymour-duncan-the-jb-model/

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

You could also all just be ignoring Occam’s razor. It’s 35 years old and could have shorted turns. Full stop.

Ha! I guarantee Frank didn't tell you that!

I'd like to see you claim that 1K doesn't make a difference on one of the winders forums

Maybe he’s referring to what I’ve said in the past, that the turn count is more of a factor in the tone than the DCR. By that I mean if the number of turns were equal, but the DCR was off by a significant amount, you have an anomaly but it should still sound “like” the same model pickup, just with a variance.

To add more turns to force the DCR’s to match would actually make it sound more different from what is intended. In other words, tonally when you have to compromise somewhere it’s better to compromise on DCR than to change the turn count for the purpose of chasing a DCR reading.

Of course if you have shorted turns then you’re somewhat achieving the effect of fewer turns as well.

Also I love it when people assume lower DCR means underwound or somehow “less” of something. In the days of the PAF, it’s true that lower DCR generally meant they didn’t leave the machine engaged as long, meaning fewer turns. However, if the turn count is identical but the DCR is lower, it implies there’s more copper; like the wire is thicker in diameter or there’s more copper within the same diameter spec, possibly due to a smoother wire draw. (Imagine that perfect Play-Doh spaghetti vs the jagged and disjointed ones) If I know the turn count is the same and there are no shorts, I will choose the lower DCR every time. It implies a cleaner signal path, more openness, better flow.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Awww, Frank, we miss you! <3

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

Huh? Was that directed at me?

If so, doing setups for bands and being intimately familiar with a particular generation of pickup that most people have never had their hands on, let alone spent time with or have multiple examples to compare, are two very different qualifications

No, I was actually mocking the other dude's self-appreciating display of dominance, as usual. His face must be in the toilet by now..lol.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

No, I was actually mocking the other dude's self-appreciating display of dominance, as usual. His face must be in the toilet by now..lol.

Yes, your rhetoric caused the poor guy to vomit.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

If I know the turn count is the same and there are no shorts, I will choose the lower DCR every time. It implies a cleaner signal path, more openness, better flow.

If I may sidetrack this thread to get clarification on this point, are you saying that with two otherwise identical modern pickups the one with the lower DCR would likely sound better?
I do not build pickups so this is a naive but sincere question. Would it likely be more lively, more clear, or what?

 

[maestroberetta]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

How this the jb model sounds?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

If I may sidetrack this thread to get clarification on this point, are you saying that with two otherwise identical modern pickups the one with the lower DCR would likely sound better?
I do not build pickups so this is a naive but sincere question. Would it likely be more lively, more clear, or what?

Sort of but you can’t just say “modern” pickups. It’s if you knew the manufacturer was militantly adhering to a certain turn count, and you knew it wasn’t the result of shorted turns, then yes given two pickups I would take the lower DCR. Less resistance = more. That’s why you hear pickup makers repeating that DC resistance doesn’t equal output. Sure it’s because you don’t know the wire gauge, or whether it’s min/nom, or nom/max for example. But it’s also because all things equal, you can think of resistance as actually the opposite of output.

 

[Discharged]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

So Frank, is this JB model actually a JB coil + a Custom coil? Inquiring minds would like to know.
You're welcome to go the PM route, if you so wish.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

^ Being the curator of about 60 to 80 vintage instruments setup and prepared for a show every year for over 15 years should allow you to determine whether or not this JB model actually a JB coil + a Custom coil, hands down.

 

[Discharged]

Re: The most curious 1970's "The JB Model" yet!

If it helps ease your mind as to competence (which you seem to question regularly), I was a lead quality control inspector for a military-contracted electronics component procurement firm in the very recent past. My job was to find counterfeits and tampered parts of all sorts. I have an eye for details few others have, which is why I was the best.

You just couldn't help yourself, uh? :smack:

/Peter