Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pretty?

[Larioso]

Hi
I was looking high and low picking my last set of pickups.
And very different what version retailers keep in stock, bobbin color and pole screws.

DiMarzio at least suggest you can pick any combination ordering - if you want the allen pole screws as one, black or metal.

But some pickups like PAF - I only saw regular screws, and then just big blank flat metal surface on other row pole pieces,

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

Does type of pole screw affect specs of pickup, or?
Does the PAF need more metal to sound right?

I just like the double row allen type, looking symmetric and nice. And you can emphasize a bit towards middle between pickups if you like, so flexible too. Instead of turning pickup 180 degrees, just up pole screws.

Did anybody order custom like from DiMarzio, can even the PAF 36th anniversary have double alllen screws?

Thanks.

[Clint 55]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Cuz every pole set up has a different sound? Use the pole set up that has the application to what you need. Double hexz has a bass scooped and gritty sound comparatively. Standard pole set up is versatile and can be warm and balanced in the neck and bright in the bridge. Double filisters is warmer than double hexz but still more complex and gritty than standard. Double slug on pos pickups has an immediate and glossy sound. Demon screw set up has a very complex sound, a balance of the super gritty hexz and more round filisters...

[Larioso]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

So it does affect sound, thanks, good to know.

[Bowtomecha]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Dimarzio does some other things like adding metal slugs in between the polepieces or using coils with different wire gauges. I think most of their pickups polepieces don’t even extend through or past the baseplate. Dimarzio uses different hex screws where there isn’t a head it’s all shaft.

[Bowtomecha]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Wow okay lol that didn’t sound like that in my thoughts

[Clint 55]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

That's true. Dimarzio poles have different dimensions than sd. Even more variables.

[AlexR]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

The PAF was originally going to be a blank cover.....no pole screws at all.
It was only when the design was in the final stages that Gibson president Ted McCarty decided to change it so that there was at least 1 row of poles....so that it had at least something in common visually with the p90 it had been designed to replace.

When Larry Dimarzio was designing his pickup, he'd seen the exposed doublecream Gibson pickup in his 1959 Les Paul (and probably on the highly rotated photo of Eric Clapton's Beano LP), and decided on this look as a Gibson homage. Why he decided on allen screws rather than fillister like Gibson.....and why both bobbins the same is not something I have delved into. It could have been a price or tonal basis as both are relevant. Certainly making only 1 coil type means you set up 1 machine for winding only.....and assembly is streamlined too as you don't have to pick one of each type every time.

Screws alter tone with material, length and shape. All of these factors affect the magnetic field.
Slugs have more mass and are shorter too. The tone from identical coils with a slug pole tend to be beefier - or a bit more punch. They are fixed in place, meaning the tone from that coil cannot be altered the way raising and lowering poles changes tonal balance with screws.

[Mincer]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Everything affects the sound to some degree. Keep in mind, you do have some choices in what you want. Some pickups can be ordered through the Shop Floor Custom program, if you are just talking about the color of the poles. Switching out kinds of poles would probably be a Custom Shop order.

[Aceman]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Yes - the poles have an effect on the sound:
Longer vs shorter
Material
Size of the head
Ability to fine tune both rows

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Hi
I was looking high and low picking my last set of pickups.
And very different what version retailers keep in stock, bobbin color and pole screws.

DiMarzio at least suggest you can pick any combination ordering - if you want the allen pole screws as one, black or metal.

But some pickups like PAF - I only saw regular screws, and then just big blank flat metal surface on other row pole pieces,

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

Does type of pole screw affect specs of pickup, or?
Does the PAF need more metal to sound right?

I just like the double row allen type, looking symmetric and nice. And you can emphasize a bit towards middle between pickups if you like, so flexible too. Instead of turning pickup 180 degrees, just up pole screws.

Did anybody order custom like from DiMarzio, can even the PAF 36th anniversary have double alllen screws?

Thanks.

If the two coils have identical pole pieces, it will sound more "humbucker" because you will get equal output from both coils. But if they pole pieces are different, one coil will be louder than the other and it will lead towards a single coil sound. Since slugs and screws are not alike, that leads to a very slightly single coilish tone in favor of the coil with the stronger output, most likely the slug coil. If it has twleve hex screws, they outputs should be nearly identical, and therefore furthest away from the single coil sound.

[Chistopher]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

Why he decided on allen screws rather than fillister like Gibson.....and why both bobbins the same is not something I have delved into. It could have been a price or tonal basis as both are relevant. Certainly making only 1 coil type means you set up 1 machine for winding only.....and assembly is streamlined too as you don't have to pick one of each type every time.

It was a visual thing like the double cream bobbins. It was intended so that you could tell if someone was using DiMarzios from a distance.

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

DiMarzio was offering a PAF type replacement pickup in the 70's, so I don't think they were just trying to save money by using hex screws. I'd say it's more evident that Seymour Duncan was going the cheap route, having their hot model, the JB, be little more than an overwound PAF while DiMarzio not only had the hex screws, but also the double thick ceramic bar in the Super Distortion. DiMarzio was trying to look futuristic and technological while Seymour Duncan was evidently trying to keep with the classic look.

[freefrog]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

And some type pickup have only one row screws, why is that?

I've NOT the answer to this question and I tend to think that talking is cheap, especially when it comes to reconstruct retrospectively the motivations of pioneer winders (or, worse, to depreciate their work without clear reasons: some people appear to see this criticism as a mission while they have never designed a pickup themselves).

Now, my humble hypothesis based on a subjective feeling is that DiMarzio extrapolated on Ray Butts's design: Filter'Tron's have double thick magnets and symetrical coils just like a Super D, albeit obviously the absence of cover + shorter hex poles of the DM lessen Foucault currents while its ceramic mag and overwound coils boost the "power" of the transducer.

Seymour has took the Seth Lover route... or rather, with something like the JB, he has extrapolated on Seth Lover's design as it had been modified by Gibson (since Seth Lover initially wanted two symetrical coils as recalled in the answer 7).
I don't see this choice as especially cheaper, since it required threaded baseplates, two kind of poles and more expensive AlNiCo mags... In my understanding, it was most probably a way to "expand" the classic P.A.F. design, born from the commercial requests of Gibson team leaders but whose sound happened to be shaped by its assymetrical structure (I vaguely remember Van Halen comparing the screws coil to a boomer and the slugs coil to a tweeter and there's something of it in the discussed design).

FOOTNOTE - ironically, DiMarzio recreated an assymetrical HB structure in another way thanks to the Dual-Resonance thing. So something tonally interesting appears to be present with assymetry, finally... :-)

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

If the two coils have identical pole pieces, it will sound more "humbucker" because you will get equal output from both coils. But if they pole pieces are different, one coil will be louder than the other and it will lead towards a single coil sound. Since slugs and screws are not alike, that leads to a very slightly single coilish tone in favor of the coil with the stronger output, most likely the slug coil. If it has twleve hex screws, they outputs should be nearly identical, and therefore furthest away from the single coil sound.

I'm sorry man but this is absolute nonsense, hogwash to the Nth degree.

Let's take a look: the Dimarzio EVO uses 43awg wire as well as 44 awg, so the two coils have two different DC readings. But no one can in his right mind say that the EVO has a singlecoil-ish tone?! Come on. Give me a break.

Same goes for the Breed, Crunchlab, Liquifire, Mojo, Fred and I can't remember which ones more.

You don't make one coil 'louder' with different polepiees, you change the inductance of that coil in order to tweak the resonance peak of that coil, which in turn alters the tone you get from that coil, which in turn is used to create a specific sound the designer has in mind, when both coils are used.

[orpheo]

Re: Allen pole screws -double rows - why isn't every pup like that - so symmetric pre

DiMarzio was offering a PAF type replacement pickup in the 70's, so I don't think they were just trying to save money by using hex screws. I'd say it's more evident that Seymour Duncan was going the cheap route, having their hot model, the JB, be little more than an overwound PAF while DiMarzio not only had the hex screws, but also the double thick ceramic bar in the Super Distortion. DiMarzio was trying to look futuristic and technological while Seymour Duncan was evidently trying to keep with the classic look.

*Ceramic magnets were cheaper than alnico's.
*SD used and always has used and still uses nickel silver baseplates: much more expensive than brass baseplates.
*the JB was NOT an overwound PAF by any means. It was intended as a hot noiseless Tele pickup (I spoke with Seymour about this subject, at length, because I did not understand what the pickup was intended to achieve).
*the JB was wound with 44 awg wire, which was not an industry standard wire in the 70ies; the Super Distortion was wound with 43 awg, which WAS an industry standard since Fender used that wire on their singlecoils since the 50ies.
*Dimarzio tied into the double cream look because it set them apart from everybody else. That's the only reason. Larry wanted people to know IMMEDIATELY that it was HIS pickup in any guitar, hence the use of double cream bobbins with 2x6 polepieces because no one did that until then (can be argued against, but that's here not there right now: he got the trademark and we should stick with that, helas).

I for one do think that DMZ tried to make a production flow as easy and affordable as possible. Why I come to this conclusion? Simple. I tore apart half a dozen 70ies JB's and compared them to half a dozen SuperDistortions and the differences are very clear, in terms of construction and quality.

* The bobbins of Seymour Duncan were of much better quality, they didn't tend to crack around the polepieces.
* the SuperDistortion didn't use a retainer bar nor the maple spacer bar like Seymour Duncan. Only a brass baseplate WITHOUT HOLES for the polepieces, unlike Seymour Duncan.
* The baseplate's screw holes would wear out on the Dimarzio because brass is softer than nickel silver.
* Using a retainer bar + spacer is two extra parts, plus using two different coils (slug coil + screw coil), necessitating the use of two fixtures for the bobbins, doubling on stock, all adds up to the price.

Let's reiterate:

* Dimarzio uses two identical bobbins, with identical polepieces, no retainer bar, no spacer bar, cheaper baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of seven parts (polepiece, bobbin, wire, magnet conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)
* Seymour Duncan uses two different bobbins, two different types of polepieces, retainer bar, spacer bar, better/more expensive baseplate. This makes for a logistical path of eleven parts ( (polepiece 1, bobbin 1, polepiece 2, bobbin 2, retainer bar, spacer bar, wire, conductor lead, retaining screw, baseplate)

How the heck do you come up with the idea that SD went the cheap route?!