Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

[orpheo]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

So I looked into the Leesona, I can see how tech changing can effect things. How the coil is wound seems like a bit of a debated topic, but it seems like it matters (from my low resolution perspective).

But what do you mean by the 59's slugs and screws pattern? Are you saying they are different from the Jazz? They look the same, but maybe they are different metals or lengths?

I believe I've read "vintage PAF" style pickups usually have Alnico 5 rod/slugs, and fillister nickle screws. Not sure if that applies to both the 59 and Jazz, but I guessed as much.

Thanks all for your replies!

the PAF's used an alnico bar magnet, never alnico slugs. And more likely A2, A3 and to a lesser degree A5 and A4.

The insulation of the wire makes a HUGE difference because of the thickness. Thicker insulation -> brighter tone.

Alnico2Pro/Jazz, '59, Pearly Gates, Seth Lover: All 42awg, Not 43. not even close. You can tell by how 'full' the bobbins are. 43 is a lot thinner than 42, so if you have a pickup wound to 7K with 43, the coil would be wimpy. Even thinner, smaller, than on a Screaming Demon. That's not the case, ergo: not 43.

[Archer250]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

They sound noticeably different to me, but in the end they still sound like neck pickups IMO.

[freefrog]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

43 is a lot thinner than 42, so if you have a pickup wound to 7K with 43, the coil would be wimpy.

FWIW, I've here a pair of hybrid HB's wound @ 7.5k with AWG43. They are bright and jangly, not wimpy - and as such, they do wonders in a 12 strings guitar. :-)

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I think Orpheo was referring to the physical dimention of the coil/wind, not the tone. Thus "wimpy" meant "small".

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

FWIW, I've here a pair of hybrid HB's wound @ 7.5k with AWG43. They are bright and jangly, not wimpy - and as such, they do wonders in a 12 strings guitar. :-)

you're talking bout a single bobbin! 7.5k is a lot with 43 AWG (almost full).
Only about 5k would fit with AWG 42 (full bobbin).

orphan is talking about the series DCR of 2 bobbins!
a single bobbin is normally around 4k with 42AWG.
single bobbin AWG43 of about 4k would sound wimpy.

[freefrog]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

you're talking bout a single bobbin! 7.5k is a lot with 43 AWG (almost full).
Only about 5k would fit with AWG 42 (full bobbin).

orphan is talking about the series DCR of 2 bobbins!
a single bobbin is normally around 4k with 42AWG.
single bobbin AWG43 of about 4k would sound wimpy.

The pickups that I evoke are a pair of custom made HB's, each wound at 7.5k (3.75k per bobbin) with AWG43. And once again, they sound bright, jangly, but not wimpy.

All is in the Art to design the magnetic circuit in order to make it cooperate nicely with the coils. The pickups that I mention host powerful mags and carefully selected slugs/screws/keeper bars. Their inductance is of 3.2H per pickup: it's somewhere between trad mini-humbuckers and regular full sized HB's wound with AWG42.

Doc, I hear you. :-)

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

The pickups that I evoke are a pair of custom made HB's, each wound at 7.5k (3.75k per bobbin) with AWG43. And once again, they sound bright, jangly, but not wimpy.

All is in the Art to design the magnetic circuit in order to make it cooperate nicely with the coils. The pickups that I mention host powerful mags and carefully selected slugs/screws/keeper bars. Their inductance is of 3.2H per pickup: it's somewhere between trad mini-humbuckers and regular full sized HB's wound with AWG42.

Doc, I hear you. :-)

he is talking about 59s and jazz PUs and similiar PAF based PUs. they are all AWG 42 and would sound "wimpy" with AWG 43 at 3.75k per coil. (another mans wimpy is a another mans bright, jangly/clear).
since the demon is probably something thinner than AWG 42 (bobbins not full at all) and with 10k(2x5k) already to wimpy for a lot of people (excluding me), but pickup geometry is based on standard PAF style dimensions/parts so can be used as comparison.
Now a extremly underwound Demon with 8k in series will not appeal to a lot of people.
That's what orpheo is talking about.

Different design (Mini HUms, Filtertrons, etc.) different rules.
a Filtertron wind on a PAF style PU with standard magnet would probably sound wimpy as well. BUt the thicker magnet, pole pieces etc. makes up for it...

[freefrog]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

he is talking about 59 and jazz PUs and similiar PAF based PUs. they are all AWG 42 and would sound "wimpy" with AWG 43 at 3.75k per coil. (another mans wimpy is a another mans bright, jangly/clear) since the demon is probably something thinner than AWG 42 (bobbins not full at all) and with 10k(2x5k) already to wimpy for a lot of people (excluding me), but pickup geometry is based on standard PAF style dimensions/parts.

Different design (Mini HUms, Filtertrons, etc.) different rules.

Communication seems difficult today...

I've understood what this topic is talking about: see my first answers above. And to be clearer (?), the intention behind my last answer to Orpheo was not to refutate his statement, but to share this selected part of my own experience : AWG43 can be wound around regular full sized humbucker bobbins (like those of SH1's and SH2's), for an overall low resistance, without sounding wimpy. It just requires a discerning choice of the parts used in the magnetic circuit. And it's interesting for 12 strings guitars.

[Lewguitar]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

There's some great information in this thread, mostly from Freefrog.

I just want to add that I have Duncans in all of my PRS SE guitars with humbuckers. For clean jazzy chords I get my favorite neck humbucker tone by using a 59n modded with a roughcast A3 magnet.

A3 is too weak for my tastes to use in my bridge humbuckers, but it's perfect for me in my neck humbuckers.

I like A3 in the neck and A2 in the bridge, and I prefer roughcast.

I don't own a Jazz neck although I owned one years ago.

I use the 59, Seth Lover and Antiquity humbuckers, and I believe all three are wound with 42 gauge wire.

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

@freefrog:
Ah oK didn't get that, sounded like you disagreed with orpheos statement.
And of course GuitarDoc got it right

I think Orpheo was referring to the physical dimention of the coil/wind, not the tone. Thus "wimpy" meant "small".

SO back to the OP

[Blobby]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

Hello,
AlNiCo slugs can be found in single coils but are really rare in humbuckers (except in special PU's like the Stag Mags). P.A.F. style humbuckers host slugs and screws made of various steel grades, with more or less carbon content. Link: https://www.pafhumbucker.com/paf-pickups-screws.html

I've been reading about single coils...I think I'm getting some of my info all mixed up ;P Thanks for the link!

[Blobby]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

The insulation of the wire makes a HUGE difference because of the thickness. Thicker insulation -> brighter tone.

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

[beaubrummels]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

Capacitance bleeds treble, leading to darker sound. More capacitance = darker sound.

[orpheo]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

I thought so too, but heavy formvar is quite a bit thicker than poly or plain enamel and heavy formvar makes for a noticeably brighter pickup, all other aspects remaining the same.





And yes.I was talking about the dimensions of the coil on the bobbin being small and wimpy, not the tone. I can imagine a 7.5-8k 43awg pickup sounding not half bad with the right magnet and the right amount of iron in a bobbin. But... it's not 'standard fare'..

[esandes]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I was convinced, from all of the hype on the SD forum about the jazz neck, that the jazz neck was a benchmark for neck humbuckers. But after some youtube clip comparisons I'd rather use the 59.