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Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in series

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  • Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in series

    Hi all,

    About the same? I know that if it were to be an a5 PAF kinda pickup, the parallel mode would be quite weak. I don't want that. I know (thanks to freefrog) in terms of the clarity, SD in parallel would be quite good.

    You see, my problem is the following guitar (76 deluxe with stock pickups):

    Click image for larger version

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    I love it's bridge tone (stock pickups measuring 6.15K). It can do the tele kinda tones such as



    and real LP tones



    I don't wanna lose the clean bridge, tele kinda tones. So if I go for the DiMarzio SD... I am afraid the output may suffer when clean.

    Or... I will have to go to custom shop asking for a tapped Deluxe kinda mini HB that can do both... But that's pricey.

    Dilemmas!!!

    B
    FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

  • #2
    Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

    I wouldn't route it for a full size humbucker because that would ruin its value. The problem with the Deluxe style mini-humbucker is that it's not built like most other pickups. The bridge coil has screws while the neck side coil has a large metal blade with a bottom mounted magnet between the coils. Firebird pickups are built entirely different and have their own tone compared to the Deluxe. The Dimarzio soapbar style humbuckers also have very different construction. Dimarzio now has Deluxe style pickups but I haven't heard any of them. Mojotone has a Deluxe mini with 11K and an alnico 8. GFS does make Deluxe style minis and I have one that's 9.2K but it has a brass baseplate and brass cover which alters the sound. I have thought about putting a silver steel baseplate and cover on it but I don't have a use for that pickup and I'm not sure it would be much of an upgrade? Basically the problem is once you start substituting different ingredients you end up with something very different.

    https://www.seymourduncan.com/produc...c/offset-other
    https://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/soap-bar
    https://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/mini
    https://www.mojotone.com/HumbuckerPickups_x#/
    https://www.riograndepickups.com/mini-humbuckings
    https://www.guitarfetish.com/Gibson-...ers_c_237.html
    Last edited by idsnowdog; 06-28-2020, 06:55 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

      Vow thanks!

      I did not know the Mojo's and GFS'.

      I was talking about the Super D soapbar. Nowadays, the search of the forum is weird and not working. But anyways, I could fish out the following thread:

      https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...eluxe-mini-HBs

      Haussel makes some pricey PAF clones to go into Deluxes. Duncan Custom shop also offers HBs to go under a p90 cover and into a p90 route. TV Jones is another alternative but... It's TV Jones... I've used a Rio Grande BBQ and Texas for a while like 15 years ago. At first I've liked them, but then than "texas sizzle" whatever... got to my nerves you know. I've started hating that excessive uppermid push. This guitar has a maple neck, so this uppermid thing could be really pronounced on this guitar. So I don't wanna go Rio Grander because of that.

      I wanna keep the current tone of this guitar (already have an ant II neck mini deluxe - love the stock neck so I am not sure if I'll get to use it in this guitar). But "add" the HB mode you know. So inherently I am a bit worried about the Super D.

      Any feedback on that?

      Thanks in advance!

      B
      Last edited by dr.barlo; 06-28-2020, 07:23 PM.
      FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

        Got it - you want to install the Super D that fits the guitar route, along with series/parallel switching?

        It is definitely worth a try. Super D in parallel is pretty twangy Tele sounding to my ears. And in series it is definitely not thin or weak. I actually prefer the split sound so maybe try that if parallel doesn't do it for you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

          I'll RE check ASAP how a P90 sized Super D wired in parallel sounds comparatively to a mini-hum. Not easy since I'm busy.

          In the meantime, let's share a few theoretical things (I write fast and the working day has not started yet so let's do it).

          A P90 sized DiMarzio Super D has practically the same resistance and inductance than a full sized one. It has the double thick ceramic mag. It has the brass BP. The only difference is in the smaller bobbins, closer to each others, with a different "coupling" factor affecting slightly the upper harmonics. It's a wee bit weaker too, because of the narrower magnetic windows, but height settings should cure that easily.

          In series, it would measure something like 13k and 6.5H to 7H (out of my head, from memories).

          In parallel, it should measure +/- 3.25k and an inductance of 1.75H.

          In split mode, it would deliver +/- 6.5k & 3.5H.


          A Gibson mini-hum measures around 6.5k or 7k and 3.2H (if memory serves me).

          A Tele bridge PU would typically exhibits 6k to 10k (depending on the AWG used) and 2.5H to 4H. Let's say 3.2H for average inductance: it's the same than a mini-hum and it explains partly why a mini-hum can appear as "Tele sounding".


          What these observations suggest:

          -IMHO, there's no need to route a guitar for a full sized Super D when a P90 sized one would do the same job @ 95%.

          -If the target is the resistance and inductance of a mini-hum and/or of a Tele bridge SC, the Super D will have to be split: @ 6.5k and 3.5 H, it should mimic a large part of their voicing.

          -The Super D in parallel would have a higher pitched resonant peak, giving a thinner tone. It wouldn't necessarily be that weaker thx to its double thick mag...

          As usual, the value of all these numbers is RELATIVE: the tone of each PU and mode will depend on the host guitar and on its wiring/pots.

          FOOTNOTE - everybody knows that I love useless footnotes that nobody reads nor understands :-))

          I've here some TV Jones classic measuring +/- 4k and a tiny 1.6H to 1.9H. They SHOULD sound weak with such a low inductance...
          But they have double thick mags and big mag poles, just like a Super D (and I think that Larry found the Super D original recipe in the architecture of Filter'Tron's, anyway).
          When I put a bridge TV Jones Classic in parallel with a 3.3nF capacitor to ground, it sounds almost as loud as a regular P.A.F. replica... and the cap "tunes" the voicing in a convincing P.A.F. way.
          So, if a Super D in parallel seems too trebly, a workable solution might be to put a small value cap in parallel with it. :-)

          FWIW. See ya!
          Last edited by freefrog; 06-29-2020, 02:58 AM. Reason: MISTAKES due to hasty writing...
          Duncan user since the 80's...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

            Gibson and GFS are the only Deluxe style mini's that I have tried. I received the GFS second hand and it had been direct-mounted in the bridge of a barncaster. It sounded OK in that role. I tried to use it in the neck of a Tele with a Rosewood fretboard and it was too dark. The brass baseplate probably wasn't a negative with this pickup since minis tend to be bright and raspy sounding. Brass baseplates round off the treble and thicken the midrange and bass. However, the cheap brass cover was a negative.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

              No way. A SupeD in parallel is gonna be about single coil output. Mini HB is gonna be a 59 at least....
              Originally posted by Bad City
              He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                Originally posted by Dave Locher View Post
                Got it - you want to install the Super D that fits the guitar route, along with series/parallel switching?

                It is definitely worth a try. Super D in parallel is pretty twangy Tele sounding to my ears. And in series it is definitely not thin or weak. I actually prefer the split sound so maybe try that if parallel doesn't do it for you.
                Right on!

                I intend to buy a Bourns push/pull pot together with the pickup. I'll go for the neck tone I think (it's the pot that I am using the least on this particular guitar).

                B
                FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                  Originally posted by freefrog View Post
                  I'll RE check ASAP how a P90 sized Super D wired in parallel sounds comparatively to a mini-hum. Not easy since I'm busy.

                  In the meantime, let's share a few theoretical things (I write fast and the working day has not started yet so let's do it).

                  A P90 sized DiMarzio Super D has practically the same resistance and inductance than a full sized one. It has the double thick ceramic mag. It has the brass BP. The only difference is in the smaller bobbins, closer to each others, with a different "coupling" factor affecting slightly the upper harmonics. It's a wee bit weaker too, because of the narrower magnetic windows, but height settings should cure that easily.

                  In series, it would measure something like 13k and 6.5H to 7H (out of my head, from memories).

                  In parallel, it should measure +/- 3.25k and an inductance of 1.75H.

                  In split mode, it would deliver +/- 6.5k & 3.5H.


                  A Gibson mini-hum measures around 6.5k or 7k and 3.2H (if memory serves me).

                  A Tele bridge PU would typically exhibits 6k to 10k (depending on the AWG used) and 2.5H to 4H. Let's say 3.2H for average inductance: it's the same than a mini-hum and it explains partly why a mini-hum can appear as "Tele sounding".


                  What these observations suggest:

                  -IMHO, there's no need to route a guitar for a full sized Super D when a P90 sized one would do the same job @ 95%.

                  -If the target is the resistance and inductance of a mini-hum and/or of a Tele bridge SC, the Super D will have to be split: @ 6.5k and 3.5 H, it should mimic a large part of their voicing.

                  -The Super D in parallel would have a higher pitched resonant peak, giving a thinner tone. It wouldn't necessarily be that weaker thx to its double thick mag...

                  As usual, the value of all these numbers is RELATIVE: the tone of each PU and mode will depend on the host guitar and on its wiring/pots.

                  FOOTNOTE - everybody knows that I love useless footnotes that nobody reads nor understands :-))

                  I've here some TV Jones classic measuring +/- 4k and a tiny 1.6H to 1.9H. They SHOULD sound weak with such a low inductance...
                  But they have double thick mags and big mag poles, just like a Super D (and I think that Larry found the Super D original recipe in the architecture of Filter'Tron's, anyway).
                  When I put a bridge TV Jones Classic in parallel with a 3.3nF capacitor to ground, it sounds almost as loud as a regular P.A.F. replica... and the cap "tunes" the voicing in a convincing P.A.F. way.
                  So, if a Super D in parallel seems too trebly, a workable solution might be to put a small value cap in parallel with it. :-)

                  FWIW. See ya!
                  Thanks in advance!

                  I gotta tell you, I appreciate all the information (including the details in the footnotes and all) quite a bit. This whole Henry thing that I've learned from your posts actually make lotsa sense to me. I used to go for the resonant peak etc. but still that did not explain why I felt a 7.70K 59n sounded more strat single coil like than say a 7.20K PGn... Even tho that 59n had more output etc. I had a Gauss meter for a while (like 15-20 years ago before it died on me) and comparing a weak a5 with a3 (both having almost the same Gauss) sounded significantly different. Meanwhile, weak a5's and a4's sounded close. So the Gauss reading was important, but still no cigar. But with those inductance figures, it makes way more sense to me. And actually it is kinda straightforward if I think about it. It is about the fq response curve. The same thing that is happening when comparing a reactive load with different inductors. I am thinking of the "Aiken" type of reactive load.

                  So thanks! I mean it!

                  I am gonna go over your message in more detail.

                  B
                  FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                    Originally posted by Aceman View Post
                    No way. A SupeD in parallel is gonna be about single coil output. Mini HB is gonna be a 59 at least....
                    So either I gotta live with the hum (use Super D split as Super D parallel is wimpy), or get me a fancy modded GE-7 to use as a "fat boost" and keep on using the mini...



                    It is a bummer, because this guitar does Vivian Campell kinda hot rod Marshall LP tones really good even with the minis.

                    Back to square one...

                    Duncan custom shop a bit pricey but seems to be the only solid option.

                    So what say you guys?

                    B
                    FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                      Originally posted by dr.barlo View Post
                      So either I gotta live with the hum (use Super D split as Super D parallel is wimpy), or get me a fancy modded GE-7 to use as a "fat boost" and keep on using the mini...



                      It is a bummer, because this guitar does Vivian Campell kinda hot rod Marshall LP tones really good even with the minis.

                      Back to square one...

                      Duncan custom shop a bit pricey but seems to be the only solid option.

                      So what say you guys?

                      B
                      I would try the Mojotone hot mini. I think that Alnico 8 and 12K resistance would remedy many of the mini's problems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                        But wouldn't I lose the tele kinda tone that I really like?

                        See?

                        B
                        FaceBook; SoundCloud; Barlo's Blues; Barlo Digitalized; Soundclick!;

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                          Ok, below are some tests done hastily yesterday.

                          1-"Raw" resonant frequencies of a P90 sized DiMarzio Super Dist in series (black line) vs split (pink line) vs parallel (light brown line, the higher pitched). The blue line with a rounder resonance comes from a mini-humbucker in my Epi Wilshire: as expected, it resonates around the same frequency than the DM in single coil mode... but it has a rounder response and less high freq because of Eddy currents (due to the cover):

                          Click image for larger version

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                          2-Below the screeshots of stacked chords, played from unfretted strings to 12th fret, with the guitar plugged DIRECT to the board.
                          Guitar used: my experimental superstrat with a hole through the body. 500k volume pot. No load tone control. Cable used: a standard 450pF / 10ft one.

                          a-DiMarzio P90 sized SD in series (orange line) vs parallel (blue line):

                          Click image for larger version

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                          b-The same in series (orange line) vs split, coil 1 (the closest to the bridge; blue line):

                          Click image for larger version

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                          c-Same thing with in blue the pickup split, coil 2 (the closest to the neck, still in blue):

                          Click image for larger version

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                          d-the bridge DM SD in series (orange line) upon the neck mini-hum of my Wilshire (blue line). NOTE: I like the min-hum set far from the strings AND it's not a Gibson mini-hum...

                          Click image for larger version

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                          e-The bridge DM SD in series vs another P90 sized DiMarzio in series, neck position (it's a DLX model, pictured in blue here):

                          Click image for larger version

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                          e-The bridge DM SD in PARALLEL (orange line) vs the neck mini-hum of my Wilshire (blue line). It's probably the most important pic here, albeit the most "discussible" because of the differences involved... But hey, that's all I can share right now:

                          Click image for larger version

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                          f-The bridge DM SD in parallel (orange line) vs the P90 sized neck DM DLX, in series (blue line). As expected, they are mismatched:

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Duncan user since the 80's...

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                          • #14
                            Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                            And as a postscriptum, the Ableton screen showing the recording levels of these tracks:

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Thinner lines = single notes from unfretted low E to high E, 22th fret (NOT pictured above). Thicker black traces = the chords pictured above.

                            Upper track: DM SD in parallel.

                            2d upper track: DM SD in series.

                            3d track: DM SD split, coil 1 then coil 2.

                            4th track: DM DLX neck in series, then the mini hum of my Wilshire (green track).


                            NOTE - These pics don't translate any advice or recommandation. They don't show how a DM SD would sound in bridge position of a LP, with a Gibson mini-hum in neck position. They are just meant to give a "rough idea" of what I was talking about in my first answer.

                            FWIW (= a mere hasty attempt to help a fellow musician or anyone else interested). :-)
                            Last edited by freefrog; 07-01-2020, 10:45 PM.
                            Duncan user since the 80's...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

                              Parallel is 1/4 of the Humbucker output.
                              Originally posted by Bad City
                              He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

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