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  • 3-Way Wiring like MSM1 Ibanez?

    Is it possible to wire this with a standard 3 way switch?

    https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

    Can someone post a wiring diagram (minus tone control) that would accomplish this?

    According to video, the middle position is: "Two inner coils, out of phase, hum cancelling".

    https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

  • #2
    Originally posted by Top-L View Post
    Is it possible to wire this with a standard 3 way switch?

    https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html

    Can someone post a wiring diagram (minus tone control) that would accomplish this?

    According to video, the middle position is: "Two inner coils, out of phase, hum cancelling".

    https://www.ibanez.com/usa/products/detail/msm1_01.html
    No, not with a standard 3 way switch. It doesn't have enough poles available to split coils on each pickup.

    A 4PDT 3 way on-on-on switch could do this. That is what is used on the John Petrucci guitar, which also is a 3 way config where the middle position is splitcoils. However, that diagram would need tweaking for this scheme, because he doesn't want the middle position to be Out Of Phase, so his is wired differently than what you want.

    No special wiring is needed to achieve the Out Of Phase sound in the case of the MSM1 scheme. Most guitars' two humbuckers are setup by default so that the inner coils of each pickup are the same magnetic polarity. Combining two coils that have the same magnetic polarity yields an Out Of Phase sound. The MSM1 simply chooses to split the humbuckers so those 2 coils are left active. For most other people looking to combine two splitcoils, they usually *don't* want the sound to be Out Of Phase, so they have to do extra work like flipping the magnet in one of the pickups, buying one pickup that is Reverse Wound /Reverse Polarity (RWRP) or other means which i will spare the details at this point. So if you pursue this with a 4DPT switch, you don't need to do anything special when splitting to the inner coils because you actually want the Out Of Phase sound that comes from doing that.

    The attached pic below is a screenshot where the artist is saying the Out Of Phase sound is achieved by the two coils being *magnetically* out of phase, which supports my statements above. Vs being "electrically" Out Of Phase which involves wiring a pickup in a certain way.

    If you can reply and confirm that you want to move forward by purchasing and using a 4DPT 3 way on-on-on switch to do this - which will replace your current 3 way toggle switch, then I can make a modified version of the Petrucci wiring that will work for what you want. So let me know.

    Just my opinion, but if I was going to spend the time to get split coils combined, I would do it where i had flexibility to switch btw either Out Of Phase or normal phase, so I wasn't limited to just out of Phase. To do that, you would need to be willing to add a 2 way switch to your guitar, or convert one of the volume or tone pots to a push-pull, or replace the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch. And I could design a diagram to support any of these options. For some options, diagrams, diagrams already exist on the Internet.
    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 07-30-2020, 07:05 AM.
    Originally posted by GuitarDoc
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Originally posted by Sanford
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Originally posted by blueman335
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the detailed explanation.

      If I was going to add a push/pull volume, wouldn't it be better to use it for a coil split of both pickups? In that sense, the middle position would be two single coils combined (phase unknown), and the guitar would have six tones overall.

      The guitar in question has a single volume knob and a 3way toggle. I won't be drilling it.

      So, regarding my options, I would either do ... 1) just the 3-way, and test whether I like the inner coils to be in or out of phase for cleans. (which apparently I can accomplish either electrically or by rotating the magnet. I dont know which I would like more.

      Or.. 2) I would do a push/pull volume to coil split both humbuckers, and the guitar would have six sounds. I'm leaning towards the former because I already like the sweep and feel of the volume control and just need a good middle clean sound.
      Last edited by Top-L; 07-30-2020, 07:30 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Top-L View Post
        Thanks for the detailed explanation.

        If I was going to add a push/pull volume, wouldn't it be better to use it for a coil split of both pickups? In that sense, the middle position would be two single coils combined (phase unknown), and the guitar would have six tones overall.

        The guitar in question has a single volume knob and a 3way toggle. I won't be drilling it.

        So, regarding my options, I would either do ... 1) just the 3-way, and test whether I like the inner coils to be in or out of phase for cleans. (which apparently I can accomplish either electrically or by rotating the magnet. I dont know which I would like more.

        Or.. 2) I would do a push/pull volume to coil split both humbuckers, and the guitar would have six sounds. I'm leaning towards the former because I already like the sweep and feel of the volume control and just need a good middle clean sound.
        Ah, with only 1 volume pot, and wanting to keep your current standard 3 way toggle, and you do not wish to drill new holes, you would need a 2nd push-pull or switch to be able to flip between Out Of Phase (OoP) and normal phase in split coil mode, and you don't have other slots/drillholes to accomodate that 2nd switch... since the volume pot has theoretically already been converted to a push-pull which is already tasked with flipping between splitcoil mode or full humbucker mode. You'd have to entertain replacing the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch to do A) split or full humbuckers & B) in-phase or out of phase.
        Originally posted by GuitarDoc
        Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
        Originally posted by Sanford
        The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
        Originally posted by blueman335
        I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post

          Ah, with only 1 volume pot, and wanting to keep your current standard 3 way toggle, and you do not wish to drill new holes, you would need a 2nd push-pull or switch to be able to flip between Out Of Phase (OoP) and normal phase in split coil mode, and you don't have other slots/drillholes to accomodate that 2nd switch... since the volume pot has theoretically already been converted to a push-pull which is already tasked with flipping between splitcoil mode or full humbucker mode. You'd have to entertain replacing the 3 way toggle with a rotary superswitch to do A) split or full humbuckers & B) in-phase or out of phase.
          Is there a current wiring diagram for a JP guitar with just three sounds? I'm undecided on whether inner coils should be in or out of phase. Apparently that can be accomplished by rotating the magnet?

          I just want to keep it simple. Will buy another 3way switch but dont want a push/pull vol.

          Comment


          • #6
            also, keep in mind that your guitar will *by default* be Out Of Phase when you split to the inner coils. If you want the inner coils to be in normal phase, that is when additional actions would need to be taken to achieve that.

            I tried explaining in my 1st reply but i understand that is a tough subject to grasp fully just through written words
            Originally posted by GuitarDoc
            Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
            Originally posted by Sanford
            The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
            Originally posted by blueman335
            I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Top-L View Post

              Is there a current wiring diagram for a JP guitar with just three sounds? I'm undecided on whether inner coils should be in or out of phase. Apparently that can be accomplished by rotating the magnet?

              I just want to keep it simple. Will buy another 3way switch but dont want a push/pull vol.
              There is a JP diagram - but like i mentionee b4:
              1. It requires a 4PDT on-on-on switch to replace your standard 3 way toggle switch
              2. John's has special wiring and actions taken, so that the two inner coils are NOT OoP. That diagram would have to be modded in order to achieve OoP inner coils, which I could do, but you'd need to be willing to purchase and use a 4DPT on-on-on switch.
              Originally posted by GuitarDoc
              Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
              Originally posted by Sanford
              The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
              Originally posted by blueman335
              I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
                also, keep in mind that your guitar will *by default* be Out Of Phase when you split to the inner coils. If you want the inner coils to be in normal phase, that is when additional actions would need to be taken to achieve that.

                I tried explaining in my 1st reply but i understand that is a tough subject to grasp fully just through written words
                No, you explained it well, I was just hoping for a wiring diagram with one 3-way.

                Thank you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Top-L View Post

                  No, you explained it well, I was just hoping for a wiring diagram with one 3-way.

                  Thank you.
                  Ok. I think i might have misunderstood what you asked for. Let me check with you

                  Are you asking for any diagram (not just a JP guitar diagram) that uses a normal 3 way toggle and a push-pull, to achieve inner coils that are out of phase? The answer to that is yes, and *no* additional action is required by you like flipping a magnet or roating one pickup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

                  If you're asking for the same as above but with the innercoils in normal phase, then the answer is also yes BUT you have to take some additional actions like flipping the magnet or rotating one pup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

                  Let me know which you want to start with, and i will dig one up or make one as needed.
                  Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 07-30-2020, 08:42 AM.
                  Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                  Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                  Originally posted by Sanford
                  The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                  Originally posted by blueman335
                  I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Working on two diagrams for you, will load up shortly.
                    Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                    Originally posted by Sanford
                    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                    Originally posted by blueman335
                    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post

                      Ok. I think i might have misunderstood what you asked for. Let me check with you

                      Are you asking for any diagram (not just a JP guitar diagram) that uses a normal 3 way toggle and a push-pull, to achieve inner coils that are out of phase? The answer to that is yes, and *no* additional action is required by you like flipping a magnet or roating one pickup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

                      If you're asking for the same as above but with the innercoils in normal phase, then the answer is also yes BUT you have to take some additional actions like flipping the magnet or rotating one pup and splitting to the other coil on that pup, etc.

                      Let me know which you want to start with, and i will dig one up or make one as needed.
                      The diagram I am looking for has a 3way switch (on on on). I believe, I will need to buy a new 3 way to do this.

                      The middle position is the inner coils of the humbuckers. As I don't know whether I want them in or out of phase, I will try it both ways and keep it wired the way I prefer.

                      There is no push/pull vol.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Top-L View Post

                        The diagram I am looking for has a 3way switch (on on on). I believe, I will need to buy a new 3 way to do this.

                        The middle position is the inner coils of the humbuckers. As I don't know whether I want them in or out of phase, I will try it both ways and keep it wired the way I prefer.

                        There is no push/pull vol.
                        Ok, so no push-pull. Then yes, your current 3 way switch needs to be replaced with the 4PDT on-on-on switch that i described earlier.

                        For you to even see what "in phase" inner coils sounds like, you will have to rotate your Neck pickup 180 degrees and then follow the stock JP diagram attached below. I recommend doing that only after 1st trying out what Out Of Phase sounds like, since your guitar is setup to do Out Of Phase by default and so you don't have to rotate the pickup twice. To try the "out of phase" sound, you will need a modified version of the JP diagram that i attached below. I can do that diagram mod for you later when i have a chance and post it up for you.

                        Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                        Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                        Originally posted by Sanford
                        The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                        Originally posted by blueman335
                        I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post

                          No special wiring is needed to achieve the Out Of Phase sound in the case of the MSM1 scheme. Most guitars' two humbuckers are setup by default so that the inner coils of each pickup are the same magnetic polarity. Combining two coils that have the same magnetic polarity yields an Out Of Phase sound.
                          Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

                          P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.

                          Last edited by ArtieToo; 07-30-2020, 12:19 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ArtieToo View Post

                            Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

                            P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.
                            Artie, thank you - you're abosulutely correct, and I just had some sideways notion about this in my head today for some reason. Even though I know better.

                            I'll go back and reassess what the OP's options are.

                            BTW, when I talk about rotating pickups, its always in combination with wiring the South coil as hot, even though I don't necessarily always mention it. However, yes, that is a solution for hum-canceling, not in phase or out of phase. Chalk that one up as well to my sideways thinking today.
                            Originally posted by GuitarDoc
                            Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
                            Originally posted by Sanford
                            The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
                            Originally posted by blueman335
                            I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArtieToo View Post

                              Hey Jack; That's not quite correct. I think you may be confusing OOP with humbucking. The only way you get out-of-phase, (reverse polarity, actually), is if you specifically wire in a reverse polarity switch. Selecting any two coils of a standard dual-humbucker guitar will always be in-phase. However, if you select the two inner coils, or the two outer coils, they won't be humbucking. Take the Triple-Shot ring for example. No matter how you place the switches, all coils will be the same polarity. Some combinations though, won't be humbucking. Make sense?

                              P.S. And rotating a pickup 180 deg's in it's mount does nothing. It doesn't change it's polarity, phase, or humbucking. It's purely cosmetic. Like Slash did with his zebra's.
                              So the question remains, how do I get an out of phase, with two inner coils like the guitar in the original post?

                              There is no additional switch, just the 3way.

                              Edit: I found a collection of diagrams on the dimarzio site. It appears that rotating one of the pickups will affect phase (the diagrams specify that the orientation of the neck will vary.)

                              https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.ne...witching_0.pdf
                              Last edited by Top-L; 07-30-2020, 12:37 PM.

                              Comment

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