How do I find the out put level for the Saturday night special pick up?

[jeremy]

Right.

So if a company wants to test their own pickups and give output readings, those readings might be accurate for their own pickups, but not relate to another company's readings because there's no standard for testing.

For Duncan's readings to be compared to Dimarzio's readings you'd need the same robot to test both company's pickups in exactly the same way.

right which will never happen, but still its a useful number for comparing within a brand

[ToneFiddler]

Funny that ALL the Nazgul's read 666.

^^
it's a conspiracy
they build this test around this number!

[Lewguitar]

thats true, but dimarzio has a method for it so it can be done. the dimarzio mv output numbers and great for comparing between other dimarzio models. each pup is tested in the same way, so while the actual output may be different in your guitar the number will tell you relatively what to expect.

Right.

So if a company wants to test their own pickups and give output readings, those readings might be accurate for their own pickups, but not relate to another company's readings because there's no standard for testing.

For Duncan's readings to be compared to Dimarzio's readings you'd need the same robot to test both company's pickups in exactly the same way.

[jeremy]

thats true, but dimarzio has a method for it so it can be done. the dimarzio mv output numbers and great for comparing between other dimarzio models. each pup is tested in the same way, so while the actual output may be different in your guitar the number will tell you relatively what to expect.

[Lewguitar]

Those readings don't look very helpful if they somehow got the Full Shred neck to be almost as hot as a bridge humbucker. For effs sake it's just a vintage output neck hum same as the rest of them. They also got the Invader neck to read lower than the Jazz neck lol!! Completely useless info.

That's why Duncan doesn't give output specs. It's too dependent on too many variables.

People picture a pickup as having a measurable output just sitting there in its box or sitting in an unplugged, unplayed guitar.

But no output exists until a plucked steel string interacts with the magnetic field of the pickup and induces voltage.

People are asking for something that doesn't exist until YOU strum or pluck the strings, and then once there is an output it could be anything, because it's totally dependent on how hard you pluck, where the pickup is mounted on the guitar, how close to the strings the pickup is...on and on.

[Clint 55]

Those readings don't look very helpful if they somehow got the Full Shred neck to be almost as hot as a bridge humbucker. For effs sake it's just a vintage output neck hum same as the rest of them. They also got the Invader neck to read lower than the Jazz neck lol!! Completely useless info.

[Gtrjunior]

The only time tests were done were about 5-6 years ago. I found this list from the thread I remember. I don't know how scientific this was but I think they really worked hard to provide consistent picking. At least it gives you a good idea when comparing different pickups. From what I remember, this was the only time this info was published. From the original post:

Good afternoon forum friends, as many of you know we are deep in the midst of a website design (and yes for those of you rolling your eyes, it has been an extraordinarily long journey as we completely re-design, record and sample our many, many pickups). I wanted to give you guys a peak at some upcoming mV data. You all know the limitations of using DC resistance as an indicator of output, a much better indicator is mV. We've devised a precise and repeatable method for testing pickup output which we believe corresponds closely to actual playing. We start with a Telecaster that has an oversized cavity routed to allow easy pickup installation. The guitar is carefully tuned to standard tuning (consistent tuning is important). We add a custom machined, mechanical, spring loaded strum arm with a tempered, .004” thick spring steel pick. We install the pickup, setting the distance from the top of the pickup to the string to .093” +/- .010” (consistent set-up is essential). We then load and release the strum arm, capturing the result on a digital storage oscilloscope. We perform this process 5 times for a 3 pickup sample lot and average the results. This is repeated for every model we make.

I'm happy to be able to share some of this data with you today. I appreciate you guys being cool and patient with us as we work to give you all the tools you could ever want to make the best selection.

SH-55n Seth Lover Model Nkl 399
SH-55b Seth Lover Model Nkl 399
SH-2n Jazz Model 501
SH-2b Jazz Model 571
SH-3 Stag Mag 389
SH-4 JB Model 737
SH-5 Duncan Custom 784
7Str Distortion Brg, Amt, Soapbar 792
8Str Distortion Brg, Amt, Soapbar 792
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792
7Str Distortion Brg Pmt 792
8Str Distortion Brg Pmt 792
7Str Distortion Nk,Amt, Soapbar 732
8Str Distortion Nk,Amt, Soapbar 732
SH-6n Duncan Distortion 732
7Str Distortion Nk,Pmt 732
8Str Distortion Nk,Pmt 732
SH-8SGn Synyster Gates,&Chr,Neck 491
SH-8SGb Synyster Gates,&Chr,Brdg 813
SH-8n Invader 491
7Str Invader Nk, Pmt 491
8Str Invader Nk, Pmt 491
7Str Invader Brg, Amt, Soapbar 813
8Str Invader Brg, Amt, Soapbar 813
SH-8b Invader 813
7Str Invader Brg, Pmt 813
8Str Invader Brg, Pmt 813
SM-2n Custom Mini-Humbkr 216
SM-2b Custom Mini-Humbkr 327
SM-3n Seymourized Mini-Humbkr 330
SM-3b Seymourized Mini-Humbkr 354
SH-PG1n Pearly Gates 513
SH-PG1b Pearly Gates 543
SH-10n Full Shred 709
SH-10b Full Shred 724
SH-11 Custom Custom 574
PA-TB1b Original Parallel Axis 749
PA-TB1n Original Parallel Axis 515
PA-TB2b Distortion Parallel Axis 741
PA-STK1n Parallel Axis Stack 291
PA-TB3b Blues Saraceno Model 694
SH-12 Screamin' Demon 500
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160
SH-14 Custom 5 Black 646
SH-15 Alternative 8 Black 761
SH-16 59/Custom Hybrid, 625
SH-18b Whole Lotta HB bridge 440
SH-18n Whole Lotta HB Neck 382
Black Winter, HB Neck 744
Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
7Str Black Winter, HB Neck 744
7Str Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
8Str Black Winter, HB Neck 744
8Str Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
6Str Pegasus Brg. 555
7Str Pegasus Brg, Amt, Soapbar 555
8Str Pegasus Brg, Amt, Soapbar 555
7Str Pegasus Brg, Pmt 555
8Str Pegasus Brg, Pmt 555
6Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
7Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
8Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
7Str Nazgūl Brg, Pmt 666
8Str Nazgūl Brg, Pmt 666
6Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
7Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
8Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
7Str Sentient Neck, Pmt 499
8Str Sentient Neck, Pmt 499
Jason Becker - bridge Black 582
TB-59 '59 Trembucker 593
TB-4 JB Trembucker 737
TB-5 Duncan Custom Trembkr 784
TB-6 Duncan Distortion Trmbkr 792
TB-8SGb Synyster Gates,&Chr,Brdg 813
TB-PG1b Pearly Gates Trembkr 543
TB-APH1B Alnc II Trembucker 499
TB-10 Full Shred Trembucker 724
TB-11 Custom Custom Trembkr 574
TB-12 Screamin' Demon Trembkr 500
TB-14 Custom 5 Trembkr Black 646
TB-15 Alternative 8 Trembkr Black 651
TB-16 59/Custom Hybrid, 625
Black Winter, TB Bridge 763
Pegasus Trembucker, Bridge 555
Nazgul Trembucker, Bridge 666
Jason Becker - TB bridge Black 582
APH-1n Alnc II Pro Humbuckr 452
APH-1b Alnc II Pro Humbuckr 499
APH-2n Slash Alnc II Pro HB 475
APH-2b Slash Alnc II Pro HB 524
LW-CH2n,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 534
LW-CH2b,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 936
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,n 1080
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368
AHB-1n Blackouts, Neck 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts, Bridge 1598
AHB-1n Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 1, Nk 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 1, Br 1598
AHB-1n Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 2, Nk 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 2, Br 1598
AHB-2b Blackouts Metal HB 3648
AHB-1n Blackouts, 8strg, Neck 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts, 8strg, Bridge 1598
AHB-3n MickT Blackouts HB Neck Bk 1079
AHB-3b MickT Blackouts HB Bridge Bk 1419
AHB-3n Mick T Blackouts 7-Str Ph 1 1079
AHB-3b Mick T Blackouts 7-Str Ph 1 1419
AHB-3n Mick T Blackouts 7Str Ph 2 1079
AHB-3b Mick T Blackouts 7Str Ph 2 1419
AHB-10n Blackouts Coil Pack Nk 1829
AHB-10b Blackouts Coil Pack Brg 1870
AHB-11n Gus G Fire Backout Coil Pack Nk 1725
AHB-11b Gus G Fire Backout Coil Pack Brg 1784
SH-1n '59 Model 7-Strg 572
SH-1b '59 Model 7-Strg 593
SH-2n Jazz Model 7-Strg 501
SH-4 JB Model 7-Strg 737
SH-5 Duncan Custom 7-Strg 784
SH-10n Full Shred Neck 7-Str 709
SH-10b Full Shred Brg 7-Str 958
SH-14 Custom 5 7-Str 646

You should make this a sticky

[ArtieToo]

Funny that ALL the Nazgul's read 666.

[Erlend_G]

^^ Well,

I guess the biggest problem is if the pickup isn't "hot enough" to give you sufficient distortion/gain. You could always use a "boost" pedal for this, but...

...also it's important to match the output between different pickups in the same guitar. To your liking, of course.

my thoughts

-E

[PicoRiveraTele]

I've never understood the desire for output values, for a lot of reasons. It depends on how hard you strum, why not modulate your strumming to suit the situations? How about raising and lower the pickups to taste? A given pickup will always produce less output in the bridge than if it were installed in the neck, so the numbers comparing neck and bridge would apples and oranges. A person can always use a light amount of compression to close of volume differences between pickups. When running into a dirty amp, the volume tends to be the same anyway, and the output just determine how hard the amp will clip at a given amount of gain.

For the most part, the output could be inferred from the inductance and the magnet. We know the magnet type, if the pickup makers were to supply the inductance, you could just make an educated guess that would be just as accurate, if not more so, than some arbitrary milivoltage regime.

[Mincer]

The only time tests were done were about 5-6 years ago. I found this list from the thread I remember. I don't know how scientific this was but I think they really worked hard to provide consistent picking. At least it gives you a good idea when comparing different pickups. From what I remember, this was the only time this info was published. From the original post:

Good afternoon forum friends, as many of you know we are deep in the midst of a website design (and yes for those of you rolling your eyes, it has been an extraordinarily long journey as we completely re-design, record and sample our many, many pickups). I wanted to give you guys a peak at some upcoming mV data. You all know the limitations of using DC resistance as an indicator of output, a much better indicator is mV. We've devised a precise and repeatable method for testing pickup output which we believe corresponds closely to actual playing. We start with a Telecaster that has an oversized cavity routed to allow easy pickup installation. The guitar is carefully tuned to standard tuning (consistent tuning is important). We add a custom machined, mechanical, spring loaded strum arm with a tempered, .004” thick spring steel pick. We install the pickup, setting the distance from the top of the pickup to the string to .093” +/- .010” (consistent set-up is essential). We then load and release the strum arm, capturing the result on a digital storage oscilloscope. We perform this process 5 times for a 3 pickup sample lot and average the results. This is repeated for every model we make.

I'm happy to be able to share some of this data with you today. I appreciate you guys being cool and patient with us as we work to give you all the tools you could ever want to make the best selection.

SH-55n Seth Lover Model Nkl 399
SH-55b Seth Lover Model Nkl 399
SH-2n Jazz Model 501
SH-2b Jazz Model 571
SH-3 Stag Mag 389
SH-4 JB Model 737
SH-5 Duncan Custom 784
7Str Distortion Brg, Amt, Soapbar 792
8Str Distortion Brg, Amt, Soapbar 792
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792
7Str Distortion Brg Pmt 792
8Str Distortion Brg Pmt 792
7Str Distortion Nk,Amt, Soapbar 732
8Str Distortion Nk,Amt, Soapbar 732
SH-6n Duncan Distortion 732
7Str Distortion Nk,Pmt 732
8Str Distortion Nk,Pmt 732
SH-8SGn Synyster Gates,&Chr,Neck 491
SH-8SGb Synyster Gates,&Chr,Brdg 813
SH-8n Invader 491
7Str Invader Nk, Pmt 491
8Str Invader Nk, Pmt 491
7Str Invader Brg, Amt, Soapbar 813
8Str Invader Brg, Amt, Soapbar 813
SH-8b Invader 813
7Str Invader Brg, Pmt 813
8Str Invader Brg, Pmt 813
SM-2n Custom Mini-Humbkr 216
SM-2b Custom Mini-Humbkr 327
SM-3n Seymourized Mini-Humbkr 330
SM-3b Seymourized Mini-Humbkr 354
SH-PG1n Pearly Gates 513
SH-PG1b Pearly Gates 543
SH-10n Full Shred 709
SH-10b Full Shred 724
SH-11 Custom Custom 574
PA-TB1b Original Parallel Axis 749
PA-TB1n Original Parallel Axis 515
PA-TB2b Distortion Parallel Axis 741
PA-STK1n Parallel Axis Stack 291
PA-TB3b Blues Saraceno Model 694
SH-12 Screamin' Demon 500
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160
SH-14 Custom 5 Black 646
SH-15 Alternative 8 Black 761
SH-16 59/Custom Hybrid, 625
SH-18b Whole Lotta HB bridge 440
SH-18n Whole Lotta HB Neck 382
Black Winter, HB Neck 744
Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
7Str Black Winter, HB Neck 744
7Str Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
8Str Black Winter, HB Neck 744
8Str Black Winter, HB Bridge 763
6Str Pegasus Brg. 555
7Str Pegasus Brg, Amt, Soapbar 555
8Str Pegasus Brg, Amt, Soapbar 555
7Str Pegasus Brg, Pmt 555
8Str Pegasus Brg, Pmt 555
6Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
7Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
8Str Nazgūl Brg, Amt, Soapbar 666
7Str Nazgūl Brg, Pmt 666
8Str Nazgūl Brg, Pmt 666
6Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
7Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
8Str Sentient Neck, Amt, Soapbar 499
7Str Sentient Neck, Pmt 499
8Str Sentient Neck, Pmt 499
Jason Becker - bridge Black 582
TB-59 '59 Trembucker 593
TB-4 JB Trembucker 737
TB-5 Duncan Custom Trembkr 784
TB-6 Duncan Distortion Trmbkr 792
TB-8SGb Synyster Gates,&Chr,Brdg 813
TB-PG1b Pearly Gates Trembkr 543
TB-APH1B Alnc II Trembucker 499
TB-10 Full Shred Trembucker 724
TB-11 Custom Custom Trembkr 574
TB-12 Screamin' Demon Trembkr 500
TB-14 Custom 5 Trembkr Black 646
TB-15 Alternative 8 Trembkr Black 651
TB-16 59/Custom Hybrid, 625
Black Winter, TB Bridge 763
Pegasus Trembucker, Bridge 555
Nazgul Trembucker, Bridge 666
Jason Becker - TB bridge Black 582
APH-1n Alnc II Pro Humbuckr 452
APH-1b Alnc II Pro Humbuckr 499
APH-2n Slash Alnc II Pro HB 475
APH-2b Slash Alnc II Pro HB 524
LW-CH2n,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 534
LW-CH2b,LiveWire II,Classic,HB 936
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,n 1080
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368
AHB-1n Blackouts, Neck 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts, Bridge 1598
AHB-1n Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 1, Nk 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 1, Br 1598
AHB-1n Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 2, Nk 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts 7-Strg Phase 2, Br 1598
AHB-2b Blackouts Metal HB 3648
AHB-1n Blackouts, 8strg, Neck 1283
AHB-1b Blackouts, 8strg, Bridge 1598
AHB-3n MickT Blackouts HB Neck Bk 1079
AHB-3b MickT Blackouts HB Bridge Bk 1419
AHB-3n Mick T Blackouts 7-Str Ph 1 1079
AHB-3b Mick T Blackouts 7-Str Ph 1 1419
AHB-3n Mick T Blackouts 7Str Ph 2 1079
AHB-3b Mick T Blackouts 7Str Ph 2 1419
AHB-10n Blackouts Coil Pack Nk 1829
AHB-10b Blackouts Coil Pack Brg 1870
AHB-11n Gus G Fire Backout Coil Pack Nk 1725
AHB-11b Gus G Fire Backout Coil Pack Brg 1784
SH-1n '59 Model 7-Strg 572
SH-1b '59 Model 7-Strg 593
SH-2n Jazz Model 7-Strg 501
SH-4 JB Model 7-Strg 737
SH-5 Duncan Custom 7-Strg 784
SH-10n Full Shred Neck 7-Str 709
SH-10b Full Shred Brg 7-Str 958
SH-14 Custom 5 7-Str 646

[Lewguitar]

9.75k is like stupid high for a paf. most were 7.5k to 8.8k and even thats being fairly generous. dont know if ive heard of one being over 9k.

that aside, its a very cool pup set for sure

Seth Lover specified 5000 turns of 42 ga. copper on each coil of a 50's PAF and if you do that you get a pickup that reads pretty low. Well under 8K.

I don't remember the number but it's 7.8k or less.

It seems to me that Seymour winds his "PAF" pickups so the neck pickup is pretty close to Seth Lover's original specs but the bridge pickup is wound quite a bit hotter.

The Saturday Night Special set , with a 9.75K bridge pickup is "stupid high" for a PAF. But apparently it sounds great, so there it is.

[Gtrjunior]

dcr and inductance are easily measurable, mv output isnt but it can still be a useful metric, as shown by dimarzio. its only useful for comparing dimarzios to dimarzios but that in and of itself is useful

Yes, if for no other reason as to have an idea of how hot a pickup is.
I’d love for Duncan to come up with a way to measure it like Dimarzio.
Of course, as already discussed, there would need to be a way to establish some sort of baseline and use that as the reference.

[Clint 55]

They're slightly hotter 'PAF's. Basically sound like an overwound Jazz set with A4s to me. The neck isn't overwound enough to change the tone really at all from ur usual vintage neck bucker which has all the high end detail and chime. But the bridge is overwound to the point to where it's starting to get slightly middy.

[jeremy]

dcr and inductance are easily measurable, mv output isnt but it can still be a useful metric, as shown by dimarzio. its only useful for comparing dimarzios to dimarzios but that in and of itself is useful