No-Load pots - No Crap Talk

[Clint 55]

The main reason I do it is to achieve a realistic sweep. I wasn't happy AT ALL with 500k tone pots. (1 meg tone pots plain old don't work at all.) Audio taper 500k tone pots are OK. However if I make a homemade 250k no load tone pot that doesn't chop it down too low, I get as bright as possible on 10 and then right into the meat of the sweet as soon as I reach 9. No turning a 500k pot down to 5 before I notice any darkening at all nonsense.

[ItsaBass]

Difference between no load and full dime has been graphed and posted at some point. Not sure of the equipment and procedures used...but I do remember thinking that the picture fell in line with my ears.

The question isn’t whether the difference exists. Basic theory tells you it does. The question is whether it exists enough to bother switching between full dime and tone bypass when playing live.

IME, using a stock Fender Esquire a plurality of the time for gigs, practices, and solo playing since I bought it in 2003...the switch between positions 1 and 2 is not worth making if the tone pot is set at full dime. I set the knob down a bit to achieve my main tone. Then I can flip the switch to a brighter setting or to a darker setting from my home base.

For those unaware, the Esquire switch goes: 1) volume active, tone bypassed, 2) volume and tone active, 3) volume active, tone bypassed, fixed tone circuit active.

FWIW, Tele wiring till ‘67 also had no active tone control in position 1...but the other positions were both neck pickup positions.

[ToneFiddler]

yes that should work, but we don't want to go down that road, at least not in this thread.
just wanted to mess with the oszi statement in the OP

[ArtieToo]

ok now i see 2 reasons

and a spectrum analyzer would be a much better tool than an oszi for this purpose anyway!!!

That could be easier than you think. There's free DAW software out there that includes SA plug-ins. You'd just want a reasonably decent interface, like a Focusrite, or similar, and you could easily "see" the affect. If you have a non-free DAW, even better. I may have to try this. Item #237 on my to-do list.

[ToneFiddler]

ok now i see 2 reasons

and a spectrum analyzer would be a much better tool than an oszi for this purpose anyway!!!

[Lewguitar]

I see no advantage of a no load pot to a push pull pot switchable tone control unless you cannot have the height of the push pull knop because of (for example) the trem arm

For me, I think turning a knob I've already got my fingers on is easier than pulling up on that knob and then pushing it back down and then turning it. That's two or three extra steps.

I'm sure if you're used to that it works fine tho. Whatever's easiest for you, right?

I used to date a Japanese lady. She didn't speak English fluently and I spoke no Japanese.

I took her to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and the waitress asked if we'd like chop sticks.

My friend shook her head no.

When the waitress left I asked my friend why she preferred a fork.

She said: "It easier!"

[ToneFiddler]

All parts 500k no load pot:
last measured resistance: 493 kOhm. that's 1,6% off

i see no advantage of a no load pot to a push pull pot switchable tone control unless you cannot have the height of the push pull knop because of (for example) the trem arm.

and if your using 250k vol + 250k with 47nF for tone control and disconnect the the tone control (via a no load pot) it will be more or less like a 500k vol. + 500k tone circuit on 10. And the difference from 250k pots (singlecoil style) to 500k pots (humbucker style) is not so subtle. could be the difference between earpiercing and muddy.

and i agree the effect with 10nF tone cap and a no load pot is less.

[Lewguitar]

No regular tone pot ever has enough resistance to block all the treble from going to ground. It's all about what you're happy with for the sound and taper. I use homemade 250k no load tone pots which meter around 200 or 220k on 9 because I like being able to hear a subtle change between 10 and 9. I play jazz so I like the bright portion of the sweep up around 7-9, too. I don't need more of a sweep at the top before the detent. If I did, I would use a homemade 300k no load tone pot.

You're right. That's why when I disconnect the 500K tone pot from the neck pickup on my PRS I hear a nice improvement (for me) in clarity.

[Clint 55]

Never has enough resistance to block some of the treble from escaping the circuit through the tone pot to ground.

No regular tone pot ever has enough resistance to block all the treble from going to ground. It's all about what you're happy with for the sound and taper. I use homemade 250k no load tone pots which meter around 200 or 220k on 9 because I like being able to hear a subtle change between 10 and 9. I play jazz so I like the bright portion of the sweep up around 7-9, too. I don't need more of a sweep at the top before the detent. If I did, I would use a homemade 300k no load tone pot.

[Lewguitar]

I know how to get what I want from a pot; it isn’t the issue. I am theorizing as to why there is apparently such a jump with no load pots, vs a tone pot bypass with a normal pot. My theory is that no load pots sacrifice “normal 10” in order to get no load. Practically speaking, this would just mean that no load pots on average trend a bit lower in value than their marked resistance, vs. regular pots. True or not, I don’t know, hence the question.

Also, I am speaking solely about manufactured no load pots, not homemade (which, of course, will have a “jump,” and can be very specifically tailored to ones desired specs).

As mentioned before, I myself opt for high value pots instead of no loads. But I’m trying to figure out why people hear what they hear in a no load pot – a district jump from full up to no load – when, IME, such a jump is not present with a tone bypass switch.

I think when it comes to home made no load pots, you're 100% right.

If part of the resistor strip is missing in the area where "8 -10" would be, the tone control never gets to "10". Never has enough resistance to block some of the treble from escaping the circuit through the tone pot to ground.

It gets turned up to maybe 8 (maybe 200K or 220K on a 250K pot?) and then the last 10 or 20% of what used to be a 250K resistor is gone and with it the connection so that the tone control is removed from the circuit before the sound of the tone control being at 9 or 10 can occur.

I don't know the situation with factory made no load pots.

Someone who has one ought to measure the resistance just before the wiper hits the end that's missing and which breaks the connection.

[nexion218]

[Clint 55]

I'm sure that's possible.

[ItsaBass]

I see what you're saying. That could be an issue either using a pre-manufactured or home-modified no load tone pot that goes from the detent immediately down to say 200k. But again, it doesn't matter, because it's possible to make the transition from detent to 9 as abrupt or seamless as you could possibly want. Want a really abrupt drop off from detent to high cut? Use an 100k or 50k pot! Want a seamless transition? Use a 250k pot that meters high. Or a 300k pot. Or even a 330k pot. Your setting on 9 with the cap in the circuit on a home made 330k no load tone pot will unquestioningly be higher than a regular 250k tone pot on 10.

I know how to get what I want from a pot; it isn’t the issue. I am theorizing as to why there is apparently such a jump with no load pots, vs a tone pot bypass with a normal pot. My theory is that no load pots sacrifice “normal 10” in order to get no load. Practically speaking, this would just mean that no load pots on average trend a bit lower in value than their marked resistance, vs. regular pots. True or not, I don’t know, hence the question.

Also, I am speaking solely about manufactured no load pots, not homemade (which, of course, will have a “jump,” and can be very specifically tailored to ones desired specs).

As mentioned before, I myself opt for high value pots instead of no loads. But I’m trying to figure out why people hear what they hear in a no load pot – a district jump from full up to no load – when, IME, such a jump is not present with a tone bypass switch.

[Clint 55]

This point is already understood, but the question is about where you are on your taper curve before the pot jumps to no load. 200, 250, or 300 K measured value doesn’t really matter that much in regards to the question, because it’s assuming identical values between the two pots (one regular, on no load). In other words, do the wafers in no load pots compress the normal 1–10 range into a shorter resistance element, or do they just use the same length element, and chop off the end of it to make room for the bypass (effectively the same as scraping it off yourself).

The question is about whether flipping between positions 1 and 2 on an Esquire (or with a switch like the OP’s), with the tone knob fully up, is the same as clicking between full up and no load on a no load pot.

Why do I ask? Because it seems, anecdotally, to me that a lot of people report an easily audible difference between full up and no load...but not so many report a difference between a tone knob at full dime and a tone pot bypass. I have a theory that this might be because full up on a no load pot is not as high as full up on a regular pot, i.e. no loads never reach their fully rated resistance, except by being out of spec (as you brought up). In other words, I’m not so sure no load pots compress the taper along the wafer element’s arc, meaning the average resistance of a batch of them would always be lower than the rated value.

If the pot jumps to the equivalent of “normal 9” when coming down from no load, then of course there will be a more audible difference than if it jumps to “normal 10.” There’s a clearly audible difference between 10 and 9 on a standard audio taper pot. Not extreme...but easy to hear, even in a mix, IME. But between “normal 10” and no load? Not in my tests, for real world mixes.

I see what you're saying. That could be an issue either using a pre-manufactured or home-modified no load tone pot that goes from the detent immediately down to say 200k. But again, it doesn't matter, because it's possible to make the transition from detent to 9 as abrupt or seamless as you could possibly want. Want a really abrupt drop off from detent to high cut? Use an 100k or 50k pot! Want a seamless transition? Use a 250k pot that meters high. Or a 300k pot. Or even a 330k pot. Your setting on 9 with the cap in the circuit on a home made 330k no load tone pot will unquestioningly be higher than a regular 250k tone pot on 10.

[Lewguitar]

I did that on my Les Paul. I love how more open and present it made the neck pickup ('57 Classic). A really good setup.

I guess an oscilloscope doesn't hear that? But my 70 year old, almost worn out, ears sure can.