No-Load pots - No Crap Talk

[ErikH]

I need a tone control for my bridge pickup. I don't really need one for my neck pickup so three of my guitars (my three favorites) have it only on the bridge pickup.

I did that on my Les Paul. I love how more open and present it made the neck pickup ('57 Classic). A really good setup.

[Lewguitar]

I did that too once with nail polish. The only thing I worried about was it wearing off when I didn't want it to so I went with the "cut the trace" method. A couple of my guitars don't even have a tone pot (my Frankenstrats). Everything else does.

I need a tone control for my bridge pickup. I don't really need one for my neck pickup so three of my guitars (my three favorites) have it only on the bridge pickup.

[ErikH]

I've used nail polish too. Disassembled the pot and painted over the last little bit of the trace. That works too. I don't do that anymore though and I don't have a no-load tone pot in any guitar I own.

I did that too once with nail polish. The only thing I worried about was it wearing off when I didn't want it to so I went with the "cut the trace" method. A couple of my guitars don't even have a tone pot (my Frankenstrats). Everything else does.

[GuitarDoc]

I do not understand this post at all? I also have a bypass toggle on the 500k cts tone pot and .044 orange drop cap in one of my guitars and I can clearly hear the difference between "in" and "out." It is subtle but definitely real

What you're saying is that the tone CAP makes a difference, even when the pot is on 10. I agree, especially if you're using a .044uf cap. And it would have been beneficial in my op if I had said that I normally use 500-550k pots with .010uf caps. My bad. That would have been very important info to include.

Your admission that even with a .044uf cap "it is subtle", means that you are looking/listening for it in a controlled environment. Not AT ALL what I said. You think you can still hear that "subtle" difference when you're gigging with a band? That was my point in my op. Didn't I say..."For all practical purposes (meaning what you hear when you are giging)"?

So: if you can't hear it, why do you keep installing the switches in your guitar?

Are you serious? You think I install tone bypass switches to switch between tone on 10 and tone out of circuit? Dude!! Seriously?!!! What's wrong with you? You're criticising ME for YOUR mental deficiencies? ItsaBass got it spot on in his post #13. You can either reread his post or you can be lazy and ask me to explain it to you in detail. (which I won't because it has already been explained and because it is too obvious, but you can ask me anyway).

And: if you can't hear it why does that mean no one else can hear it? My wife can smell things I cannot smell. For a long time I thought she was full of BS. But it has become clear over the years that her sense of smell is much more keen than mine. And my hearing is much more sensitive than hers.

I was speaking in generalities.....very accurate generalities by the way. But if you are an exception, more power to you. I'll invite you to come over to tell me when my neighbor's cat farts three doors down during rush-hour traffic.

Finally: what does any of this have to do with expensive cars?

As far as you being unable to understand my metafore, all that means is that you have a deficiency in your abstract reasoning ability, it doesn't mean you don't have a very acute hearing.

I am a very practical/thrifty/cheap dude. The guitar I am talking about is a "Gibson" MARAUDER for cripes sake! No corks are sniffed here!

Thank goodness you didn't say it was an original Gibson '59 LP Standard. But point made, anyway. (You only drive a Tesla).


If I remember correctly, you have made some good contributions to the forum. Why are you trying so hard to destroy your credibility?

[ErikH]

No, you would not have a click if making your own no-load pots, and of course you wouldn't be getting "10" right before you get to no load. You'd go from no load right to 9.5 (approximately).

But the no load pots I've tried have had a click at the end.

The only one that had a click that I could feel was the one I purchased, yes. The ones I made I never felt the click.

When making your own, the resistance value at the end of the trace before the cut doesn't change. It remains the same before and after the cut. So, the new "10" is the same as 9 or 9.5 without cutting the trace. Pots that are built as no-load probably have the same trace all the way through with the additional click at wide open to remove it from the circuit.

[Lewguitar]

To answer this part, it would be 9 or 9.5 on a normal pot when clicked in to the circuit, at least from what I can tell from measurements. I only every bought one no-load. Every other one I used I made by opening it and cutting the trace right before the wiper.

And it's OK that it's 9 or 9.5 when rolled down and clicked in (though I never felt a click myself) because at that point, rolling off with the tone control is wanted. If it's on 10, nope.

They mostly became popular in the 80's when the Superstrats were the rage. Guys wanted the single volume control feel and bite but have the tone control there so their techs would cut the trace, or in some cases just disconnect the thing (Angus Young's SG's are like that).

I've used nail polish too. Disassembled the pot and painted over the last little bit of the trace. That works too. I don't do that anymore though and I don't have a no-load tone pot in any guitar I own.

[ItsaBass]

It doesn't matter. Because all pots vary in how much max resistance there is. Say you have a 250k tone that meters 225k on 10 then you make a no load pot that metered 260k before you chopped the strip.. Now when you turn down ur new homemade pot to 9.5 and the cap pops into the circuit, it's at 245k - higher than what many regular tone pots will be on 10. If you're particular about having '10' after you turn down past ur no load detent, then just use a pot that meters high, or use a 300k pot. Another one of the benefits that I like from no loads is that I always use 250k. That way I know on 10 it will be brighter than a regular 500k pot on 10 but when I turn it down to 9 or 8, I will be able to notice some darkening. Effectively cutting out the useless portion of the top part of a 500k tone's sweep. There is some 'slight' coloration at the top part of a 500k tone's sweep that you can barely hear in comparison to out of the circuit, but it's mostly useless to me if I want to actually hear some darkening.

This point is already understood, but the question is about where you are on your taper curve before the pot jumps to no load. 200, 250, or 300 K measured value doesn’t really matter that much in regards to the question, because it’s assuming identical values between the two pots (one regular, on no load). In other words, do the wafers in no load pots compress the normal 1–10 range into a shorter resistance element, or do they just use the same length element, and chop off the end of it to make room for the bypass (effectively the same as scraping it off yourself).

The question is about whether flipping between positions 1 and 2 on an Esquire (or with a switch like the OP’s), with the tone knob fully up, is the same as clicking between full up and no load on a no load pot.

Why do I ask? Because it seems, anecdotally, to me that a lot of people report an easily audible difference between full up and no load...but not so many report a difference between a tone knob at full dime and a tone pot bypass. I have a theory that this might be because full up on a no load pot is not as high as full up on a regular pot, i.e. no loads never reach their fully rated resistance, except by being out of spec (as you brought up). In other words, I’m not so sure no load pots compress the taper along the wafer element’s arc, meaning the average resistance of a batch of them would always be lower than the rated value.

If the pot jumps to the equivalent of “normal 9” when coming down from no load, then of course there will be a more audible difference than if it jumps to “normal 10.” There’s a clearly audible difference between 10 and 9 on a standard audio taper pot. Not extreme...but easy to hear, even in a mix, IME. But between “normal 10” and no load? Not in my tests, for real world mixes.

[AlexR]

and you know if you gig there are still intros and layed back passages

Exactly.

Not everybody plays like its the 70's or 80's - where generally the goal was not finesse and a good balanced sound, but deafening all attendees......in fact given the state of live music I'd bet nobody plays gigs the same way now.
And for those who were playing gigs then.....yep, I'd agree you can't hear the difference - anymore.

No need to tar us who still have bog standard unaffected hearing with your brush though.

[ToneFiddler]

Hm don't totally agree. Yes i have LPs where i can turn the tone down to 8 or on some even 6 before i really notice a change.

But on most of my single coil guitars it's a different story. Some are earpiercing bright when soloing if i disconnect the Tonecontrol from the Bridge.
my guitars with singlecoil sized humbuckers sound way too muddy if i leave the Tonecontrol connected with a 250k Volume.
on the other hand with a 500k volume and no tone my chopper is earpiercing for lead work.
i can adjust this with the amp settings but if i don't, it really hurts...

and you know if you gig there are still intros and layed back passages

[Clint 55]

But...my big question about no load pots. Yes, they click out of the circuit on 10...but when you click them back in, are they giving you what would be 10 on a normal pot? Or are they giving you what would be 9, or 9.5 on a normal pot?

It doesn't matter. Because all pots vary in how much max resistance there is. Say you have a 250k tone that meters 225k on 10 then you make a no load pot that metered 260k before you chopped the strip.. Now when you turn down ur new homemade pot to 9.5 and the cap pops into the circuit, it's at 245k - higher than what many regular tone pots will be on 10. If you're particular about having '10' after you turn down past ur no load detent, then just use a pot that meters high, or use a 300k pot. Another one of the benefits that I like from no loads is that I always use 250k. That way I know on 10 it will be brighter than a regular 500k pot on 10 but when I turn it down to 9 or 8, I will be able to notice some darkening. Effectively cutting out the useless portion of the top part of a 500k tone's sweep. There is some 'slight' coloration at the top part of a 500k tone's sweep that you can barely hear in comparison to out of the circuit, but it's mostly useless to me if I want to actually hear some darkening.

[Clint 55]

Clint, you obviously did NOT read my post. I didn't say a regular tone pot is bypassed on 10. I said I have a switch on my guitar that bypasses the tone pot. So...

YOU give it a rest until you can learn to read.

You, yes even you with your God's-gift-to-mankind hearing, cannot hear the difference between a dimed regular pot and a dimed no-load pot when you're playing with a band at a gig. If you tell me any different, you are an out and out liar. Just like you can't hear any tones above 20,000 hz (even if you say you can...unless you actually are not human).

WAT

[ItsaBass]

No, you would not have a click if making your own no-load pots, and of course you wouldn't be getting "10" right before you get to no load. You'd go from no load right to 9.5 (approximately).

But the no load pots I've tried have had a click at the end.

[ErikH]

But...my big question about no load pots. Yes, they click out of the circuit on 10...but when you click them back in, are they giving you what would be 10 on a normal pot? Or are they giving you what would be 9, or 9.5 on a normal pot?

To answer this part, it would be 9 or 9.5 on a normal pot when clicked in to the circuit, at least from what I can tell from measurements. I only every bought one no-load. Every other one I used I made by opening it and cutting the trace right before the wiper.

And it's OK that it's 9 or 9.5 when rolled down and clicked in (though I never felt a click myself) because at that point, rolling off with the tone control is wanted. If it's on 10, nope.

They mostly became popular in the 80's when the Superstrats were the rage. Guys wanted the single volume control feel and bite but have the tone control there so their techs would cut the trace, or in some cases just disconnect the thing (Angus Young's SG's are like that).

[Lewguitar]

The Fender Esquire has one pickup and a three way selector switch.

One setting is the single pickup with tone control, one setting is that pickup without a tone control and the third setting has a capacitor on that pickup that shunts most of the treble to ground and makes the guitar super bassy.

Even Leo Fender, who couldn't play the guitar, could hear that a pickup sounded different without a tone control connected to the circuit.

So he made one of the settings on the switch omit the tone control.

There's a difference. No doubt about it.

You guys are arguing about something that people knew 70 years ago: a 250K tone pot bleeds some treble to ground even when it's turned all the way up, and the pickup sounds brighter and a little stronger when you remove that tone control from the circuit.

[ItsaBass]

To re-state what I said earlier (since someone specifically asked after my post), the purpose of such switches is not to switch between tone on 10 and no tone pot at all. There is, quite literally, no point in doing that. It's to switch between tone on, for example, 7 and no tone pot at all (sonically equivalent to 10, in the real world), without having to find exactly the same tone setting again. You pre-set your tone knob, and you can then switch it in or out with a flick.

I can indeed hear a difference between tone on 10 and no tone pot at all...IF I am specifically listening for it, IF I am in a sonically pure environment, playing solo, and IF I have 250K pots. Then, the difference is barely audible with a 250K pot, and inaudible with a 500K pot or higher. And this is not a real world scenario.

But...my big question about no load pots. Yes, they click out of the circuit on 10...but when you click them back in, are they giving you what would be 10 on a normal pot? Or are they giving you what would be 9, or 9.5 on a normal pot?

Also to re-state: I believe, based on trial and error, that removing the pot's load from the circuit has a far larger tonal effect in regards to the volume pot than to the tone pots. I do see some utility in no-load volume pots...although as I said, I prefer to just get a higher valued pot, myself, and run it down a bit if needed. I don't need the "click" to satisfy me.