All Pickups Sound Dull in the Bridge - 1986 Charvel Model 3a

[superpete]

if there was something wrong with the wiring/pots/caps your tech should have noticed it when they were swapping out the pickups. I personally don't think it's that. If you don't want to swap pus again (and there are a lot of great pu suggestions so far), i'd buy an eq pedal and boost whatever frequencies you're missing.

[EVOLVIST]

if there was something wrong with the wiring/pots/caps your tech should have noticed it when they were swapping out the pickups. I personally don't think it's that. If you don't want to swap pus again (and there are a lot of great pu suggestions so far), i'd buy an eq pedal and boost whatever frequencies you're missing.

Fair enough. I recently bought a Mesa/Boogie 5 band EQ pedal that we run in the FX loop to tweak the sound through various guitars, amps and cab combos, so that Boogie pedal might work on the front end while tracking. Either that, or like I said, I've been juicing the reverb while using this guitar. It stays tight sounding, but yeah, reverb seems to add that sparkle.

I really appreciate all of the responses!

[Pa11]

Hey,

I have had 2 guitars that sounded like the tone control was at 50%. both were too dark sounding to actually grab pinch harmonics reliably. one was a charvel and another was a Jackson.

I spent a long time swapping pickups and playing with different things but in both cases there was no fix. the guitars were just that dark. I had to offload them. I even wired pickups (active and passive types) direct no tone volume etc.

I even tried eq pedals before the amp etc, and it just exaggerated the noise floor. the treble simply wasn't there.


your experiences might be different (I hope!). but in the end I couldn't get it to sound as I like.

Patt

[Mincer]

I had a very mid-heavy guitar (a Music Man), and until I got a pickup set the guitar needed, vs what I wanted, I was unhappy. I ended up with a Custom 5 (which has very little mids) and it cured the issue.

[freefrog]

Right, the Models 5 & 6 are neckthru with the mid-boost, and you're also correct, without the mid-boost the pups sound close to garbage. With the mid-boost the J-80c in the Model 5 and the J-50bc in the Model 6, they are glorious pickups with a full frequency response, very lively and hot as hell. The 3a does have the Khaler 2520, yes. I only play the 1986 MIJ Charvels, with no care for the later models, unless I can get my hands on a Model 8.

But in this case I'm not comparing my Model 3a with the Models 5 & 6. That would be pointless. I'm comparing the Invader pup to an Invader in an '80s Jackson King V that a friend of mine owns. No mid-boost in the Jackson of course. But, that Jackson is a neckthru, while my 3a is a bolt-on. Might that be the difference? I've certainly held a sense of pride for my neckthru guitars, as they really do sustain better. Then again, oh how many bolt-on necks with Invaders have sounded kick ass, too? Plenty! But maybe that's the issue.

Hey, but at least the Seymour Duncan Invader sounds better than that crap Dimarzio Crunch Lab.

Hello,

IME, the brass roller saddles in Kahler bridges tend to soften the acoustic resonance...

I've mounted once an old Kahler Flyer on a partcaster with a basswood body that I had routed and I would also qualify the sound obtained as "dull" with passive pickups... Only a Bill Lawrence USA L500 made a difference in this case. Not that I liked this pickup : it was simply harsh enough to compensate the "natural" dullness apparently due to basswood + brass roller saddles.

A bit of this acoustic dullness is present in my own 1986 Charvel model 4 but it's less noticeable. I attribute that to the absence of springs cavity.

In my understanding, a preamp was added in our old Charvel's partly because of that: it keeps electronically an amount of high frequencies that a passive electronics might loose because of stray capacitance... and it compensates perfectly the softening effect of Kahler's. :-)



BORING FOOTNOTE THAT READERS ARE FREE TO IGNORE- That said and actually (at least IME), this Charvel/Jackson preamp is a paradoxal device. Yes, to some extent, it maintains some "detail" in the high range... but it's also designed to mimc the resonance of passive pickups through a relatively long / high capacitance cable, whatever is the position of the mid control. If memory serves me, there's a 1nF capacitor to do that on the preamp chip and my measurements certainly show a relatively low pitched resonance in ALL settings - just low enough to give some beef in the high mids without reaching the ice pick 3khz area... and it feeds a hi-mid presence rather than a full frequency response, to my ears. IMHO THAT's what gives to the preamp most of its tonal profile.

A consequence is that I wouldn't compare my Charvel model 4 to any guitar plugged through a low capacitance or medium capacitance cable. The signal of the guitar with passive pickups would have to be ALSO filtered by an overall stray capacitance of 1nF - IOW, I'd plug my passive pickups through a 20ft / 6m standard guitar cable... Or with a 10ft/10m cable, I'd add some 680pF capacitor between the hot and ground of the output jack (note: I'm NOT saying that it would solve any dullness since added capacitance diminishes high frequencies; but at least it would locate the resonant peaks of the pickups @ the same place than with the Jackson preamp, giving the same kind or "voicing")...

[EVOLVIST]

Hello,

IME, the brass roller saddles in Kahler bridges tend to soften the acoustic resonance...

I've mounted once an old Kahler Flyer on a partcaster with a basswood body that I had routed and I would also qualify the sound obtained as "dull" with passive pickups...

...and it compensates perfectly the softening effect of Kahler's. :-)

I think you may be on to something. My other two Charvels have the active mid-boost and the pups sound brilliant with the knob at 10. Turn of the mid pre-amp and those pickups sound like ass.

What do you think, get a set of steel rollers for the ol' 2520 Kahler? That should counter any wood issues, yeah?

[freefrog]

I think you may be on to something. My other two Charvels have the active mid-boost and the pups sound brilliant with the knob at 10. Turn of the mid pre-amp and those pickups sound like ass.

What do you think, get a set of steel rollers for the ol' 2520 Kahler? That should counter any wood issues, yeah?

Theoretically, yes, it should help.

Now, I won't swear that it will solve your issue: the interaction between elements is always complex when it comes to acoustic resonance (the last steel rollers that I've mounted brightened the sound but brought some atonal parasitic "zing", not so pleasing to hear... LOL).

Good luck in your experiments anyway. :-)

[Lewguitar]

I'm not familiar with your guitar, but how would you feel about removing that preamp and turning it into a regular passive guitar?

I think that's what I'd be inclined to do.

Most great players who's tones we love don't have preamps in their guitars.

[Mincer]

Or, there are more balanced preamps out there. Replacing that should also be on the table.

[EVOLVIST]

Theoretically, yes, it should help.

Now, I won't swear that it will solve your issue: the interaction between elements is always complex when it comes to acoustic resonance (the last steel rollers that I've mounted brightened the sound but brought some atonal parasitic "zing", not so pleasing to hear... LOL).

Good luck in your experiments anyway. :-)

Nah, I know it's a suggestion and an experiment, not a definite. Nonetheless, it make sense to try it. Because, what I'm talking about is a small lack of life to the pup, yet tonally the Invader is what you'd expect from an Invader, if that makes sense; it's just that a little zest is missing from anything I put in the Model 3a. So, without the mid-boost that I have in my Model 5 & 6 (and yes, they have the stock Kahlers with the brass rollers), a Model 3a without the mid-boost might sound dull because with the Model 3a the mid-boost can't cover up a less than optimal trem design like it would the Model 5 & 6.

[EVOLVIST]

I wouldn't go with the teflon rollers like this vid, but it also shows the difference between the brass and the steel. I would go with steel because that's what I'm used to with non-Kahler trems, like my 1980 Gibson Sonex-180 Custom.

[ErikH]

Another note to those mentioning the preamp in the 3a. There is no preamp in the 3a. They didn't come with one. His 5 and 6 do have the preamp. The issue is with the 3a, fully passive.

Steel saddle rollers could surely make a difference as mentioned. Worth looking in to.

[Mincer]

Well, if no preamp, then, I just think it is the wrong pickup.

[Clint 55]

Dude the Invader is like the muddiest pickup in the line, are you kidding? Just pick a brighter pickup. The lower in output you go, the brighter the tone gets in general, not vice versa.

[dave74]

The gates tb8 invaders (still have another new unopened!) are not even the least bit muddy in my wmd-warbeast (big chunky maple neck-thru w/nato and ebony, but I also wired it with a single 500k volume and no tone in the circuit. It's paired with the stock mafia ceramic neck (dcr-10.5ish, very clear and concise for a neck).

IMO the invader is not right at all for something with a full basswood body.
If I was picking an ideal guitar to try an invader it would be something like a MIJ floyded Jackson dinky-pro(maple bolt-on and alder body w/ebony)

Dimebucker has the clear cutting crunch to match with the typical basswood mushiness. Great combo.
Also look into the nazgul. Based on the demos I've heard and the specs it seems like another good match for basswood (in the high-output realm).

Another random thought;
Why not just use a pedal to boost and shape the gain? The only "problem" then is,,,,,,,,, Which one?! lol