Mini Humbuckers - options / experiences?

[zionstrat]

Minis and firebirds are my favorite pickup swap for a tele neck and I recently had an opportunity to install a DiMarzio 4 conductor mini.

The DiMarzio does exactly what a mini should.. it cleans up well and does light crunch nicely.

It was a major rewire with a five way to add hoop and series... however the client asked me to do something I have always avoided...to parallel a mini.

He's listened to me compare and contrast coil cuts to parallels for years and he wanted to experiment. However I told him this is not the place or time to mess with coils because minis aren't that powerful to start with.

But he stuck to his guns so I wired up a push pull and the parallel measured a good old 1.5k ohms... I was preparing my sinister "I told you so" laugh, I plugged it in and I was totally knocked out by the parallel to self.

I get the idea that a parallel to self is a little more complex than a coil split but this sound was amazing.

Considering that any mini is going to have more output than a standard telly neck pup, the parallel sound was what I imagine the original neck in a telly should have been...clean and articulate without the mud.

In the middle position it sounds just like a regular tele. When you return the mini to series you get a significant umph.

I guess this is the exception that we talk about when we say that resistance isn't everything.

So he's got it set up with one of my favorite tricks... When the mini is parallel to self he dials up the preamp just short of dirt in positions 1, 3 and 5. And when he returns the mini to series it sings. And when he switches to 4th position the mini and bridge go in series and it really cuts well.

So live and learn, again I'm not entirely sure why this sounded so good. I did shoot the whole mod however I've done this mod so many times before that I didn't use my room mic.

If I can find time I think I'll go ahead and put the video together anyway and we'll see what we can hear from the good old microphone in the cell phone.

[Drak]

^ ^ That is an interesting story and thanks for having the courage to parallel a mini.
Which leads me to this: the Bill Lawrence/Gibson Marauder bridge pickup.
I have three of them I bought for about $25.00 each years ago and bought to put in the necks of Teles.
I have to make a pickguard router cutout template for them yet.

These things ohm out at 2k & some change... like 2.2k IIRC.
I've always believed they were humbuckers permanently wired in parallel (only two wires so no options)
Which would put each coil at around 4.4k, and if it could be done, series connected for a high 8k pickup.
And their aperture window is about the same size as a mini, they're bigger and beefier than a SC.
So I'm expecting glorious (if not permanent) toanz from my old Marauder pickups in a Tele neck.
Mine are the later-issue black cover jobs.

Maybe install two of them side-by-side and series THAT?

Interesting story.

[zionstrat]

Drak, thanks for the kudos but the client almost had to bend my arm to get me to do it (that's also a lot of wiring in a standard tele cavity

Mararder photos are cool! Although obvious now, I didn't know they are stacked hbs... Very interesting.

Your maths sound right so it would be interesting to see if they can be converted... Guessing they don't have a lot of historic value?

As far as pickups side by side, why not give it a shot? I've got a bathtub strat that I use for this type of experiment. Some think that this creates interference between pickups but why not see what happens?

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[Drak]

No conversion possible, they're all entombed in epoxy with two leads, but one could install two of them and wire that in series...

[DavidRavenMoon]

Minis and firebirds are my favorite pickup swap for a tele neck and I recently had an opportunity to install a DiMarzio 4 conductor mini.

The DiMarzio does exactly what a mini should.. it cleans up well and does light crunch nicely.

It was a major rewire with a five way to add hoop and series... however the client asked me to do something I have always avoided...to parallel a mini.

He's listened to me compare and contrast coil cuts to parallels for years and he wanted to experiment. However I told him this is not the place or time to mess with coils because minis aren't that powerful to start with.

But he stuck to his guns so I wired up a push pull and the parallel measured a good old 1.5k ohms... I was preparing my sinister "I told you so" laugh, I plugged it in and I was totally knocked out by the parallel to self.

I get the idea that a parallel to self is a little more complex than a coil split but this sound was amazing.

Considering that any mini is going to have more output than a standard telly neck pup, the parallel sound was what I imagine the original neck in a telly should have been...clean and articulate without the mud.

In the middle position it sounds just like a regular tele. When you return the mini to series you get a significant umph.

I guess this is the exception that we talk about when we say that resistance isn't everything.

So he's got it set up with one of my favorite tricks... When the mini is parallel to self he dials up the preamp just short of dirt in positions 1, 3 and 5. And when he returns the mini to series it sings. And when he switches to 4th position the mini and bridge go in series and it really cuts well.

So live and learn, again I'm not entirely sure why this sounded so good. I did shoot the whole mod however I've done this mod so many times before that I didn't use my room mic.

If I can find time I think I'll go ahead and put the video together anyway and we'll see what we can hear from the good old microphone in the cell phone.

I always prefer parallel to split coil. It gets that clean bright tone with no hum.


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[ArtieToo]

But he stuck to his guns so I wired up a push pull and the parallel measured a good old 1.5k ohms... I was preparing my sinister "I told you so" laugh, I plugged it in and I was totally knocked out by the parallel to self.

I wish I could get people to stop making reference to DCR of coils in parallel. It's meaningless. You're simply tricking the internal circuitry of your meter. Take a Vintage Rails. Its DCR is 2.5k. But it has the voltage output of a 5k coil. (Two, actually.) Because that's what it is. Two AA batteries in parallel have the exact same voltage as one by itself.

I'm done.

I always prefer parallel to split coil. It gets that clean bright tone with no hum.

Exactly.

[zionstrat]

Artie,
We've had this conversation before and I wish I understood things better.. My brain perceives circuits as plumbing which means I either find an EE course for pickups or I can continue to make decisions based on this is connected to that + experience ... Maybe it's time for you to write a modern book about pickups :-)

So let's drill into this a little deeper if you don't mind. Two coils in parallel usually sound as if there is less output then series. I get the idea that the voltage is the same so where do we measure the difference?

I understand that DCR is only useful comparing length of wire in coils that otherwise are exactly the same. And I also understand that inductance is the best way to ultimately measure a pickup...

And I also understand why my customers tend to be more happy with parallel as opposed to series coils.. humbucking is a great advantage and there is a bit of added complexity to the signal because no two coils are exactly the same. And it may be that complexity, however in the mix it seems that parallel is a little louder than a coil cut.

But how do you measure any of this? My customer was asking for parallel because he's heard the results on many other pickups. But in my mind 1.5 kohms was far too low to produce a reasonable result and I know a lot of other modders who have said exactly the same thing.

In your example, voltage doesn't change but the sound is considerably different. So what measurement could I have been using that would have predicted that a 1.5 parallel on a mini would produce sufficient volume to be useful?

Thanks for any and all input as always!
Michael

[ArtieToo]

But in my mind 1.5 kohms was far too low to produce a reasonable result and I know a lot of other modders who have said exactly the same thing.

Hey zion; This is difficult to explain in a "sound bite." Which is what a forum post effectively is. It isn't 1.5 k ohms. That's the misinformation your meter is conveying to you because you're confusing the meter circuitry with a parasitic electrical path. (The "other" coil.) Both coils are producing the same voltage. So you have twice the current capability to "drive" the load of the volume and tone circuits. The perception of lower output is coming from the fact that both coils are picking up slightly different string nodes. Therefore, you'll get a degree of phase cancellation at certain frequency points. But, you'll also get certain frequency augmentation at other points. It's kinda like the sound of the neck/middle of a Strat. That sound is often mistakenly interpreted as being weaker, or out-of-phase, when in fact, it isn't. It's just the way our ears, and brain, interpret the sound.

Let me see if I can explain this better in the morning. With coffee.

But remember . . . you were surprised by how good it sounded. It's approximately the same output, but harmonically more complex.

[freefrog]

Artie,

So let's drill into this a little deeper if you don't mind. Two coils in parallel usually sound as if there is less output then series. I get the idea that the voltage is the same so where do we measure the difference?

I understand that DCR is only useful comparing length of wire in coils that otherwise are exactly the same. And I also understand that inductance is the best way to ultimately measure a pickup...

Hi,

I can't talk for Artie but if I can add my humble two cents to his explanations above...

You already have a part of the answer to your question, IMHO: wiring coils in parallel divides their inductance more than it does with DCR (because of mutual inductance).

This change shifts up the resonant frequency of the pickup. It locates its 'peak power" (resonant peak) higher in the audio spectrum...


Below is an example.

http://kenwillmott.com/blog/wp-conte...omparisons.png

Green and blue lines come from the same (blades) humbucker wired in series and parallel with a 220k load (= roughly two "low DCR" 500k pots).

I wish the author of this test had not filtered the result by converting voltage to current, because it hides the resonant peak in series in this case. I also wish he had mentioned stray capacitance... but this missing info doesn't hide what happens with parallel wiring: it rises the resonant peak of approximatively 2000hz and lowers the output of +/- 2dB:

I've similar tests in my archives but am too lazy / busy to search them right now. LOL.

So what measurement could I have been using that would have predicted that a 1.5 parallel on a mini would produce sufficient volume to be useful?

Inductance and Gauss readings. At least that's how we do it here.

It's also possible to estimate what Artie mentions above: how a pickup in parallel captures differently vibrating strings by creating a different comb filtering effect. Here is a useful applet about that:

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupR...emo/index.html

If we select two pickups and locate them virtually with the same gap than between two coils in a humbucker, we'll see what it does compared to one single wide virtual pickup (simulating itself a series humbucker).

Now and if you ask me: none of these measurements or simulations is able to show exactly what a specific pickup does in a defined guitar. If the lutherie creates acoustic dead spots, a pickup will interact with that in a necessarily unpredictable way IMHO/IME.

That being said just to share my indifferent thoughts. Hope it helps to some extent. :-)

Oh, and... like several fellow members above, I tend to prefer parallel compared to split coils. I also agree with the interest of a mini HB as a neck pickup in a Tele. I've recenty worked on a Squier like this, whose Duncan Designed neck mini HB sounded surprisingly good to my ears:

https://images.reverb.com/image/uplo...ji6oevzbb5.jpg

[zionstrat]

Wow, Artie and Freefrog! After all of these years, I think you guys just threw enough acorns into the conversation so that the blind squirrel can pick up a couple :-)

If I am understanding the graph correctly, the green line series average is about one and a half DB above the parallel blue line in the mid-range and bass range. However the blue line has a significant increase around 1 DB at 5K.

So if I'm understanding this all correctly, although the energy is the same for both, most of the series signal falls right in the middle of our ears sweet spot so we perceive it as a loud sound.

And if I've got that correct, then the blue parallel curve is demonstrating that reduced output in that same mid-range range so we hear it as quieter. However that spike up at 5K might be part of the reason that parallel often has a bright shimmering quality and helps it sit well in the mix.

So, assuming I've got that right I would just love to see what a coil split would look like.

Thanks again guys. Very very interesting!

[freefrog]

If I am understanding the graph correctly, the green line series average is about one and a half DB above the parallel blue line in the mid-range and bass range. However the blue line has a significant increase around 1 DB at 5K.

So if I'm understanding this all correctly, although the energy is the same for both, most of the series signal falls right in the middle of our ears sweet spot so we perceive it as a loud sound.

And if I've got that correct, then the blue parallel curve is demonstrating that reduced output in that same mid-range range so we hear it as quieter. However that spike up at 5K might be part of the reason that parallel often has a bright shimmering quality and helps it sit well in the mix.

That's how I could word it too - without forgetting what Artie said about coils capturing different "nodes" of the vibrating strings (as illustrated on request by the admirable Tillman applet). :-)

So, assuming I've got that right I would just love to see what a coil split would look like.

A HB in single coil mode should set between series mode and parallel wiring, when it comes to resonant frequency AND (electrical) output. Reason: the inductance is only halved in single coil mode.

Please, note that results should or might differ under vibrating strings because of the actual "magnetic windows" (strings reading windows) involved in both cases.

Thanks again guys. Very very interesting!

You're welcome. It's always a pleasure to share something here (and it's a very minor contribution compared to ALL what Artie has generously shared on this forum until now).

[ArtieToo]

You're welcome. It's always a pleasure to share something here (and it's a very minor contribution compared to ALL what Artie has generously shared on this forum until now).

Thanks for the kind words freefrog, but I think you actually nailed the technical part better. It was late, and I was tired, last night. I was probably a little too succinct to be clear. Or helpful.