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Diagram help: 2H 1V 1 on-on toggle (split) 1T push-pull switch coils, 3 way blade

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  • Diagram help: 2H 1V 1 on-on toggle (split) 1T push-pull switch coils, 3 way blade

    EDIT: tl;dr: we got it working! apparently my neck pup is RWRP so I moved the splitting wiring to a separate on/on toggle switch and wired its output (instead of ground) to the tone dpdt which switches between grounding the series joins or sending them to the 3 way blade (in parallel to the hots coming off the pickups). This allows the switch to toggle splitting on and off, and the tone push/pull to switch said split between the inside coils and outside coils, all while still cancelling hum (in the middle position anyway).

    I created a wiring diagram, and retroactively attached it to this first post for any future tone nerds.


    Hey! It's been a while...
    I have a PRS SE Custom 22 with the 85/15Ss. Currently it's wired with a vol, 3 way blade, and push/pull tone pot for coil split.
    I just mounted a small DPDT on-on switch. It will take over the coil splitting duties of the tone pot, because it's more practical for me than pulling up the tone pot. I still want to use the tone for something though, and that's what I need help with...

    I want to use the push/pull tone to alternate between the north coils and the south coils that are grounded by the coil split switch. To clarify, this would mean that the on-on switch will ground 2 coils, and when the tone pot is "down" it will be the south (inside) coils that are grounded, but when it is "up" it will be the north (outside) coils that are being grounded.

    This is a little unique so I can't find a dedicated diagram for something like this, but I'm using this as a starting point obviously: Seymour Duncan 2 Hum, 1 vol, 1 on-on switch coil split, 3 way blade diagram.

    How should I approach this? should I wire the tone pot as a phase switcher essentially? I think I just need a little help discerning which diagrams/concepts to piece together.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by sparkplug; 04-10-2021, 04:54 PM.

  • #2
    This diagram I designed for another forum member EricComposer72 a few months ago has elements that will cover what you want to do with your on-on switch and your push-pull.

    First, ignore the middle humbucker and the switch that it routes to that changes it btw In Series and In Parallel mode.

    That leaves 2 two-way switches left in the diagram. First, note the one that receives the the red & white wire pairs from the Neck and Bridge humbuckers. You will wire your On-On switch like that switch. Then note the other switch that receives wires from that switch. That is how you will wire your Tone pot's push-pull. In your case, the pink wire that comes off that switch will route to where the Neck hot wire connects on your 3 way toggle. And the red wire that comes off that switch will route to where the Bridge hot wire connects to your 3 way toggle switch.

    So your on-on switch will trigger whether coilsplit mode is active or not, and the Tone pot push-pull will determine which coils are being left actice and being silenced.
    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 04-04-2021, 03:03 PM.
    Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
      So your on-on switch will trigger whether coilsplit mode is active or not, and the Tone pot push-pull will determine which coils are being left actice and being silenced.
      Whoa! this is awesome, and clever! thank you so much! really came in clutch with something exactly as specific as I needed, haha.

      Question... in the "down" position of the last DPDT switch (which will be the tone pot in mine but i'd wire it upside down of that), how are the outside coils getting grounded? the north starts on both neck/bridge still go directly to the blade switch, but so goes the output of this 3rd DPDT switch. I think I can see clearly how the inside coils are grounded though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by sparkplug View Post
        how are the outside coils getting grounded? the north starts on both neck/bridge still go directly to the blade switch, but so goes the output of this 3rd DPDT switch. I think I can see clearly how the inside coils are grounded though.
        So I should have clarified earlier that in this diagram:
        1. In each of the two coilsplit modes, the South coil (screw coil) of one pickup and the North coil (slug coil) from the other pickup is left active. This is done to achieve hum-canceling. This is done by shunting one of the 2 coils to Hot instead of routing the coil to ground. That is happening on the switch that will be the Tone pot's push-pull. If BOTH coils were instead sent to ground, then you'd have 2 coils active that are the same magnetic polarity (i.e. both South or both North) and that combination would have 60 cycle hum like a singlecoil pickup.
        2. The neck pup has been physically rotated in its mounting ring 180. So the screw coil which normally faces the neck, is now facing the bridge. This is done so that one of the two coilsplit modes features Both Inner Coils, and the other coilsplit mode features Both Outer Coils. If the neck pickup does not get rotated, then in one coilsplit mode you get Outer Neck coil and Inner Bridge coil, and in the other coilsplit mode you get Inner Neck coil and Outer Bridge coil. And the result is still hum-canceling because of what is done in step 1.

        So, if hum-canceling in the 2 coilsplit modes is something you want, definitely follow how the switch is wired that will be your tone pot's push-pull. And its your discretion whether you rotate either the Neck or Bridge pickup so that the active coils in coilsplit mode are located in certain slots.
        Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
          So I should have clarified earlier that in this diagram:
          1. In each of the two coilsplit modes, the South coil (screw coil) of one pickup and the North coil (slug coil) from the other pickup is left active...

          So, if hum-canceling in the 2 coilsplit modes is something you want, definitely follow how the switch is wired that will be your tone pot's push-pull. And its your discretion whether you rotate either the Neck or Bridge pickup so that the active coils in coilsplit mode are located in certain slots.
          got it. so Im leaving my pickups in the traditional config, and I'll plan to wire the tone pot such that one side is reversed, ensuring that both outside coils are cancelled at the same time, leaving both inside ones. If I did this though would it make it so the outside coil split is traditional, and the inside coil split is hum cancelled?

          maintaining hum cancellation wasnt my goal, but thats definitely a helpful plus..... other than the hum being gone, am I looking at any other tonal difference compared to a true split where one coil is grounded? and is this called something else or is it still splitting?

          I did realize later after my last question that joining red/white to hot does make north sorta cancel out, leaving south start. thats a clever design.
          Last edited by sparkplug; 04-05-2021, 08:52 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Please clarify for me what you want the two coilsplit modes to be. Right now my understanding is that you want one to be Both Inner Coils (which won't be hum-canceling because you're not rotating either pup and you're routing both wires to ground) ... and the other coilsplit mode you DO want hum-canceling?
            Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

            Comment


            • #7
              My only end goal is for one mode to be outter coils and the other to be inner coils. If either or both modes are able to also have hum cancellation that's cool but not necessary for me; just trying to better understand how that would work.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks.

                I will hand sketch something for you in a couple minutes and post it up for you
                Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here you go

                  Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Awesome, thank you so much! That's along the lines of what I was interpreting.

                    Question... In the position where the wires from the on-on switch are joined to the 3way blade along with the hots from the pups, why is there no hum cancellation? Is that not what's achieved by having north start and north finish connected?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For two coils being combined to result in an output that cancels 60 cycle hum, each coil must have opposite magnetic polarity from each other. (Opposite signal flow direction is also required but that is moot here because we've already broken the Opposite Magnetic Polarity requirement).

                      When you ground the series-link pair of wires for both the Neck pickup and the Bridge pickup, you are leaving two coils active that have the same magnetic polarity (north coil / slug coil). Same kind of result by shunting that series link pair of wires to Hot for bith pickups - both coils left active are magnetically South (screw coils)

                      Just in case you weren't already aware, the physical arrangement of magnetic polarities per coil for f two Seymour Duncan humbuckers arranged in default pattern, sequences like this by default.

                      (Starting from closest to the neck of the guitar, working down towards the bridge):

                      Neck humbucker pickup, outside coil: Screw coil (south)
                      Neck humbucker pickup, inside coill: Slug coil (North)
                      bridge humbucker pickup inside coil: Slug coil (North)
                      Bridge humbucker pickup, outside coil: Screw coil (South).

                      Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sparkplug View Post
                        Awesome, thank you so much! That's along the lines of what I was interpreting.

                        Question... In the position where the wires from the on-on switch are joined to the 3way blade along with the hots from the pups, why is there no hum cancellation? Is that not what's achieved by having north start and north finish connected?
                        Wait... you're mixing up the two switches. The on-on switches wires attach to the tone pot's push-pull. They do not attach to the 3 way blade. It's the tone pot's push-pull that has wires attaching to tbe 3 way blade switch.
                        Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 04-05-2021, 11:33 AM.
                        Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The on-on switch's role is turn coilsplitting mode on or off. The tone pot push-pull's role is choose btw what kind of coilsplitting to do (either Both Inners or Both Outers).
                          Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Okay, this has been very educational. You've made me realize that I've had some misconceptions.
                            (Firstly, I didn't confuse the switches I just didn't write clearly. We're on the same page about how the switches are connected).

                            I didn't realize that the outside coils are south... When SD diagrams a single pickup they use a bridge not a neck, which I just realized. There's my first realization. Up to now I've thought that it goes North/South/South/North from neck to bridge.

                            I also have been under the impression that traditional (i.e. stock, manufacturer configured) coil splitting wiring has the 2 inside (north) coils grounded, and the two outside (south) coils (when pickup selector is in middle position) offer hum cancellation.
                            My question about that is, does stock coil split wiring usually do the neck-facing coils on each pickup (combining a north and a south) offering hum cancellation, or do most pickup manufacturers reverse(?) The winding or something on either the neck or the bridge to make wiring it simpler to understand?

                            I think that my understanding about what the wiring diagram does might be spot on, but that I'm actually really confused about how neck vs bridge pickups are constructed!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For what it's worth, I think I understand how I'm going to he rewiring the guitar and once I do I'll run some tests to understand for sure what I did.

                              Just struggling to understand the physics here 🤣 I do understand now why no hum is cancelled in the most recent diagram you drew me. I have never seen wiring like that before, shunting the series joint over to hot. This has been a supe constructive conversation for me, I appreciate you.

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