Questions about my 'Do It All' Wiring

[ArtieToo]

Yeah . . . it's the RW thing that is messing with me. I understand the theory, but without actually having one in my hand, I kinda hate to say for sure how it all fits together. And, I'm going back and forth between this, and a customers weird wiring and guitar. And the PATB's make it worse, because there's no distinctive stud or screw coil. And as luck would have it, my own PATB-1n is missing the logo, so I'm not sure which way it's oriented in the guitar. I'm trying to avoid tearing into my other PATB equipped LP. (But I will if I need to.) Although, it still won't be RWRP.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Yeah . . . it's the RW thing that is messing with me. I understand the theory, but without actually having one in my hand, I kinda hate to say for sure how it all fits together. And, I'm going back and forth between this, and a customers weird wiring and guitar. And the PATB's make it worse, because there's no distinctive stud or screw coil. And as luck would have it, my own PATB-1n is missing the logo, so I'm not sure which way it's oriented in the guitar. I'm trying to avoid tearing into my other PATB equipped LP. (But I will if I need to.) Although, it still won't be RWRP.

The multjmeter and compass tests should clear all that up though, right?

https://youtu.be/7UfxQBhqen8

[ArtieToo]

The multjmeter and compass tests should clear all that up though, right?

Yup. But they're 200 miles away in Tampa.

But see if this logic, (good on paper), makes sense:

Fig 01: Normal Duncan HB'ers, split the normal way, taking the series link to ground. You get the inside coils, but not humbucking.

Fig 02: Flip the magnet on the neck. (RP) Since that reverses the polarity, we "spin" the coils like a propeller. (Electrically, not physically. Ie., reverse wiring.) That reverses our polarity again, and we get inside coils, and humbucking.

Fig 03: Now we do Reverse Wound. (RW) That brings our polarity back, and we can "spin" the coils back to their normal state. Which brings us back to standard wiring. Split to inside coils, and humbucking. And, consequently, we can split to outside coils and remain humbucking.

Does that seem correct? I think so, but I hate doing this on paper.

[ArtieToo]

In the above, it's important to note that when I say "spin" the coils, I'm simply talking about on paper, and how they're wired. Not physically doing anything with the pup or how it's mounted.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Yup. But they're 200 miles away in Tampa.

But see if this logic, (good on paper), makes sense:

Fig 01: Normal Duncan HB'ers, split the normal way, taking the series link to ground. You get the inside coils, but not humbucking.

Fig 02: Flip the magnet on the neck. (RP) Since that reverses the polarity, we "spin" the coils like a propeller. (Electrically, not physically. Ie., reverse wiring.) That reverses our polarity again, and we get inside coils, and humbucking.

Fig 03: Now we do Reverse Wound. (RW) That brings our polarity back, and we can "spin" the coils back to their normal state. Which brings us back to standard wiring. Split to inside coils, and humbucking. And, consequently, we can split to outside coils and remain humbucking.

Does that seem correct? I think so, but I hate doing this on paper.

Correct me if i am wrong, but the description for figure 2 seems to say that two polarity reversals occur? Which if that happened, yes, the two polarity reversals would cancel each other out, having a final polarity that matched the orignal state.

But based on what Mincer has described in this thread about his RWRP SD made pickup, which matches up to the behaviors I found for a RWRP SD made pickup I recently acquired (and that i did the full meter and compass tests on), that 2nd proposed polarity reversal does not occur. What has been experienced in both cases, is that with the magnet flip of a Neck humbucker, that the Slug coil becomes the North coil, and the electrical polarity of the 4 conductor wires are reversed because of that. Black and Red are now negative, and White and Green are now positive. So the final polarties - both magnetic and electrical - are reversed, not somehow brought back to original state. Meabing at the end of figure 2, that we no longer get Both Inners and Both Outers using that same diagram. Vs the conclusion stated at the end of figure 2. Instead, how the coilsplits are designed in Lugs 2 and 4 of those 4 poles needs to be rearranged.
.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I meant to write screw coil not slug coil in the last reply. I tried correxting it but keep getting 403 errors.

[ArtieToo]

Correct me if i am wrong, but the description for figure 2 seems to say that two polarity reversals occur? Which if that happened, yes, the two polarity reversals would cancel each other out, having a final polarity that matched the original state.

Correct. For the sake of clarity, let's just consider a single coil. (A humbucker being two singles connected together.) There are only three elements that control polarity. Magnet orientation, coil wind direction, and lastly, which way you connect the two wires. And consider that polarity can only be flipped 180 deg's. (I know you already know this. Just being clear.) Any odd number of flips gives you out-of-phase, and any even number stays in phase. So, if we compare fig. 01 to fig. 03, we flip the magnet, (1st polarity change), then reverse wind, (2nd polarity change.) We must leave the wiring as it was or we'll flip the polarity again.

Three strikes and you're OOP, so to speak.

If he wires it as fig. 3 and it's out of phase, I'd question whether or not the pup is truly RW. But I'd sure love to have it in my hand. (Not a hint, Dave.)

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Correct. For the sake of clarity, let's just consider a single coil. (A humbucker being two singles connected together.) There are only three elements that control polarity. Magnet orientation, coil wind direction, and lastly, which way you connect the two wires. And consider that polarity can only be flipped 180 deg's. (I know you already know this. Just being clear.) Any odd number of flips gives you out-of-phase, and any even number stays in phase. So, if we compare fig. 01 to fig. 03, we flip the magnet, (1st polarity change), then reverse wind, (2nd polarity change.) We must leave the wiring as it was or we'll flip the polarity again.

Three strikes and you're OOP, so to speak.

If he wires it as fig. 3 and it's out of phase, I'd question whether or not the pup is truly RW. But I'd sure love to have it in my hand. (Not a hint, Dave.)

Consider this:

We already agree that the magnet flip reverses the electrical polarity of all 4 conductor wires. It seems you're saying you expect a 2nd reversal in polairtyy due to wiring it in reverse (green as hot and black as cold). But i believe Mincers and my experiences are showing that no such 2nd polarity reversal occurs jusy by connecting the pup in reverse. All the reverse wiring achieves, is for that pickup to not be OoP with the other pickup.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

As Green is now + and remains positive due to the mag flip. How you connect green to another wire does not change the fact that green is now +.

So as i think sbout it, i would remove the 3rd of your clauses (how a wire is connected to another) when talking about what drives a polarity change. It is true that how you connect two wires can drive differeneces whether the result is in phase or out of phase. But that is separate to the electrical polariy of the wire itself. The electrical polarity of each wire does not change just by how you connect it to another wire.

Meter tests tell us this.

[ArtieToo]

I want to make sure we're on the same page. A single pickup has no absolute polarity. I can flip the magnet, wind the coil in reverse, or hook its' wires up backwards, and it will have no affect on the sound of the guitar. It only becomes relevant as it pertains to a 2nd pickup. And again, I'm sure you get that. Reverse winding a coil is done at the factory and there's nothing can be done about that. Magnet polarity can be changed by the user, but it takes some pup disassembly. How the wires are connected can be done on the fly, with a switch. But they all do the same thing.

So, if you reverse the polarity twice by reverse winding, and reverse magnet polarity, the wiring should remain unchanged in order to be in phase with a 2nd pickup. I don't know if this will help, but there's no need to make the middle pup on a Strat be RW. Just connect it's wires backwards. It will be electrically identical, and still be hum-cancelling when used with the neck or bridge.

As Green is now + and remains positive due to the mag flip. How you connect green to another wire does not change the fact that green is now +.

I kinda missed this point. When you flip the magnet, green becomes positive. When you reverse the coil wind, it goes back to being negative. Two flips.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Artie, that last point about green wire remaining.posiive regardless of how you connect it, is the crux of the matter.

Multimeter tests show us that the electrical polarity of green remains positive regardless of the polarity of the wire that you connect it. So how you connect two wires does NOT change polarity. It only impacts whether the result of that combination is in phase or out of phase.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Take mag flip out of the equation entirely, as an example.

Then assume that Black wire is positive. The polarity of Black does not change based on the polarity of the other wire that it gets connected to. The phase relationship does. It could be in phase or out of phase. But black wire remains positive throughout.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

If by "reverse wind" you mean the pup manufacturer actually winding the coils in reverse at the time of construction, sure i agree with the idea of a 2nd polarity reversal occuring.

But based on the behahviors mincer and i have seen from our two SD made pups, it seems only the mag was flipped. Incorporatinf your point, if wind had been reversed, we should be seeing Green wire at tradiional - instead of +. But we're not.

So i apologize for calling these two pups "RWRP" in the last several threads. They're apparently only RP. That created confusion. My apologies.

Fyi: the label on mine literally reads "RP", not "RWRP".

[JamesPaul]

I want to make sure we're on the same page. A single pickup has no absolute polarity...

I don't know if this will help, but there's no need to make the middle pup on a Strat be RW. Just connect it's wires backwards. It will be electrically identical, and still be hum-cancelling when used with the neck or bridge.



...

Doesn't this put them out of phase? There's a phase switch on my Lead II which has 2 singles. IIRC, all the switch does is reverse the wires of the bridge pickup.

Edit:. Disregard, I think this is answered in post #57

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Artie,

I think in addition, i also started mixing up "reverse wind" and "reverse wiring" earlier in this conversation. Sorry about.

Bringing all that together for a final wrap-up, i believe the diagram doesn't work as-is for mincer's pickup because mincer's pickup (like my recent acquisition), only has a mag flip. It doesnt also have reverse wind. Thats the cause of the problem.