New P-rails & triple shot circuit ???

[Imtxn]

Problem with p-rails & triple shot.
I have wired my Ibanez HH with your pickups and triple shots. But am experiencing difficulties with the outcome.
The guitar has 2V&2T pots like an SG. My idea is to use a Tele 4-way selector switch to add a parallel pickup choice. Execution was simple. The controls and 4-way position in the circuit were simply reversed so that “controls output enters the 4-way & the switch output goes to the jack”. The neck’s triple shot ground & return were separated at the neck’s volume pot. I used RG-178 to shield the signal paths and have tacked it together to be permanently wired after debugging. The 4-way is wired.. bridge, both series, both parallel, neck in a conventional manner.
But, both volume controls will affect the guitar’s output when a single pickup is selected.
This is the issue, there is no physical connection before the switch. In fact the neck’s return is opened by the switch in the bridge position. Bad switch? Coupling in a totally shielded signal path? WTF
in my mind this circuit should work even though the controls and switch positions are reversed.
may I have your thoughts?
}!€

[beaubrummels]

Did you use a wiring diagram? Can you post it?
Can you post pictures of your actual wiring?

Some of your description doesn't make sense to me, like "neck’s triple shot ground & return were separated at the neck’s volume pot" (which means nothing as the neck has to connect all the way to the jack at some point to get sound, so you have multiple opportunities via the switch where you bridged something unintended) and shielding the signal paths with RG-178 and "tacked it together to be permanently wired after debugging". I've never heard of using coax to wire a guitar, nor making it 'permanent'. If you are having problems, then you aren't done debugging so you shouldn't have made anything 'permanent' yet I would think. Coax seems like overkill, but need to see the actual wiring to see if you did something that is shorting part of the works together or what happened.

There are countless conversations on here from guys who 'wired everything correctly' but it still doesn't work and they can't believe it's their wiring. Really need to see what you did to help you.

[ThreeChordWonder]

I'm not sure you can wire two pickups with a four way switch AND achieve independent volumes. That is because the four way switch relies on switching the neck ground on, off, and around to achieve series and parallel connections. The Telecaster 4-way works uses a single volume and a single tone, downstream of the selector switch.

It should work, but I haven't tried it, so I can't say for certain.

If you want independent volumes,, and can live with the usual 3-way, do this.

Put the pickup "hots" to the volume pot middle lugs, put the "outs" to the switch to the left lugs (looking at the back of the pots, lugs pointing towards you).

Solder the remaining lug to the pot casing or solder in a little wire jumper. Do not forget this step.

Disconnect any grounds between the two volume pots, but keep the volume to tone and tone to tone grounds in place.

A final ground is needed between the pots and the output jack, of course,, and you also need to ground the bridge and body shielding (if any).

The pickup grounds should go to their respective volume or tone pots. Since the volume and tone pots for each pickup are grounded to each other, it doesn't matter which.

if your pickuos have third, independent shields or baseplate ground wires, solder those to the backs of the pots too.

Independent volumes, job done. Did it on my Gibson SG and my DIY HH Strat.

As for using co-ax wires for the pickups, I wouldn't . The outer braid is designed to be a shield only, not a signal conductor. Use two independent wires as the pickups came with, and remember the risk of RF pickup over 4, 5, 6, even 12 inches of wire between the pickup and the controls is miniscule compared to the 2 foot long strings, let alone the 3000 to 5000 feet of wire in each pickup.

[Imtxn]

Hey there, I really appreciate your response guys. I will post a drawing soon as i draw one. This is very puzzling to me, the Ibanez is no more than an inexpensive experimental platform for my own use.
Originally, the guitar was a $32.00 junker from eBay with 1V&1T pot, broken selector and broken tuners. Which I replaced with CTSs and an OG 3-way & added two more audio pots stacked vertically in the route under the bridge, set it up after repressing several frets, levelling, crowning & polishing them. I made a bone nut from an old cow bone(from the pet store). The controls were SG wired. I was very satisfied with those results. Especially those stacked pots, doing volume fades & sweeps with both volumes with a pinky …
I replaced the ceramics with cheep alnico 5s after i took a torch the the 4-piece basswood body and a wire brush (er?? Fire hardening like caveman spears or centuries old buildings in Japan which were done in the same manner) I noticed no tonal change as I expected.
Then after a bit of good fortune, and a $180.00 eBay auction I had a set of P-rails & triple shots. Those rings are one of the best ideas I’ve seen in years!
I searched the net for schematics. Found several for HH guitars but each used push-pulls to manipulate the pickup phasing or series/parallel selects.
using a blade switch required rerouting the cavity deeper to accommodate for a Mojotone 4-way. No way any push-pulls would fit in there and I wanted a parallel humbuckers selection.
I needed independent volume & tones so taking their inputs from a common source wouldn’t work, i.e. like a Tele. using a 4-way. A 4-way is nothing more than a switchable connector taking separate inputs and combining them into a single output. The parallel/series select is accomplished in the return wiring in positions 2&3. And that little bridge connecting both sides of the switch.
I found out why the p-rails & rings were so cheep. The ribbon cable was broke on one if triple-shots. After 4 failures to resolder the ribbon, I successfully replaced it wth single high temp wires. Don’t attempt this if you still want your hair! And, wired the cavity to test.
and this is where I am now.

[Imtxn]

As I see it, ground and return are two different things. In a 2-wire single coil the return usually connects to the ground plane at the volume pots case. The signal is delivered to the other components via that other wire. Fender used the return wire to connect the metal shield on a Tele’s neck PU to ground at the V pot’s case. and that’s why it requires a seperate conductor in 4-way switch applications.
A noiseless single coil has a 2-wire coax & a shield conductor too, p-rails have a 4-wire cable with a shield. That little PC board on the triple shot interfaces with a 2-wire /shield.
i measured continuity between the jack ring & the PU’s height adjustment bolts. Although I did not verify if the shield was actually isolated from that return at each PU. Guess i need to access the PUs the do that next.
AND, i haven’t been able to upload anything successfully yet sorry

[Imtxn]

I just figured my problem out!
I suspect the mistake was made when i replaced the ribbon cable on the tripple-shot. The ribbon was soldered to the pads where the pickup connections were normally soldered to instead of the original pads. If that PC is multilayered… I missed it.
Every thing else looks ok.

[Imtxn]

After further consideration, I don’t believe that replacing the ribbon will be a cause for what i have described. Misswiring the rings little PC would not explain any coupling or bridging. Although I will verify that the shield is totally isolated from the return wire PU to the triple shot’s output next.
thanks eh, for your thoughts and tolerating my babbling
I’ll pose again when I know more
}!€

[ThreeChordWonder]

Uh... okay

[ThreeChordWonder]

Just to be clear, normally people refer to a hot wire from and a ground wire to pickups.

The ground voltage is held a 0 volts by the amp, I think, and the signal is fed through the "hot" wire.

Humbuckers and some other wires may have multiple wires, individually insulated, contained within a single sheath. the sheath may or may not include a thin foil layer for shielding. A fifth, bare, wire provides grounding for that shielding and also for the humbucker base plate. That bare wire always goes direct to ground, never through the switch.

That bundle of wires is not a coaxial cable. A coaxial cable typically has a single conductor, surrounded by a braided or wound sheath, which is grounded and prevents the conductor from picking up stray radio frequency, or RF for short, noise. The sheath is not intended to carry signals.

A Telecaster neck pickup has a chrome cover. There's usually a little link between that cover and the pickup ground wire. To use the 4-way switch, however, you need to break that link, install a third wire to separately ground the cover discreetly to a pot casing.

The 4-way switch mod works by connecting and disconnecting the neck pickup ground wire.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/images...S_4B_1V_1T.jpg

[Imtxn]

I appreciate the info Threechords. The nomenclature I use was dictated by 10 years electronics experience at Hughes aircraft & 35 years industrial journeyman electrical experience. I use those terms to differentiate between the actual coils return conductor and the jack’s ring which is the guitar & amps ground connection.
You are correct in thinking the shielded cables from PUs are usually not coax, but they could be. You are wrong to think that the foil shields RF. The foil shields electrostatic interference, i.e. fluorescent lighting , the foil actually shunts any coupling to ground before it gets to the center conductor. Twisting a hot & its return utilises opposing magnetic fields to cancel coupling common to both wires. That’s why the ac heater feeds in a tube amp are always twisted.
I still can’t upload pictures. I get rejected every time I’ve tried.
the switch circuit you posted is not the one I used. I wanted the series & parallel selections positions at
switch position 2 & 3. I found a diagram on the net which would do this.
By simply exchanging component order I was able to individually control the volume and tone for each PU before combining their signals at the 4-way. I used
RG-178 because I have a spool. It’s effectiveness is superior to graphite paint or copper tape. I did this to minimise noise if the triple-shot is selected for single coil usage.
question: if the neck coil’s return is open in the first position how can its volume pot positioned before the switch (no output from the PU) affect the bridge PU’s volume ?
again guys, I thank you for your thoughts.
IMHO A Paul’s & SG’s selector is a 1-hole mount, 4-ways are 3-hole mounts. Are they even made for a 1- hole mount? And that’s why those guitar circuits always use a 3-way.
Me

[ThreeChordWonder]

Sorry, didn't know I was teaching grandma how to suck eggs, as we Limeys say. You get all sorts round here you know.

[ThreeChordWonder]

PS floursecents emit RF. 60 Hz RF but still RF. If it was DC static the pickups wouldn't, um, pick it up.

4 way telecaster blade mounts like a regular Tele.

[JB_From_Hell]

If your switch included a wiring diagram, I’d try following it. Semi-recently, I put a 4 way in my Tele, and while I don’t love the series option being where I’m used to the neck pickup being, it worked with zero issues.

[Imtxn]

I apologise three chords l, if my lengthy explanations offended you. Or if My knowledge and experience is different from yours. I wasn’t asking you to teach, I asked for your thoughts. Like you said, “ you see all kinds of folks here”. AND, i don’t want or need your nationalistic, name calling BS ANY MORE

[Mincer]

Let's get back on topic please.