2-Hum 2-Vol 2-Tone 3-way toggle- coil split?

[Mincer]

The Paul was a cool model. All walnut - both body and neck. Ebony fretboard.
Today not many know, but they had long tenon necks too.

At the time it was the only guitar I knew of which could make T-tops sound huge.

Were The Paul and The SG known as heavy instruments? How do they sound compared to normal ones?

[ThreeChordWonder]

Someone let me know if what I'm thinking is correct with this wiring. The Seymour Duncan diagram isn't real clear on the orientation of the p/p pots. Insert with the CTS pots has red&white going to c2 and 3 to ground for a basic coil split.. Their pic is upside-down because that's how I'm looking at it. If I flip the SD diagram they are the same and it makes sense... where for the neck red&white to c1 and 1 to ground.? Thanks

SD draws its wiring diagrams so that the "pull" contacts are nearest, pictorially, to the pot bodies.

Just use a multimeter or circuit tester to verify which lug you ground to the pot casing. Generally speaking, the worst outcome if you don't could be you get coil splits in the "push positions" and full humbuckers in the "pull positions". Easily corrected too.

[GuitarDoc]

Off the top of my head, and bearing in mind I'm on vacation 6,500 miles from my own ones, I'd say they are about 1/4 inch shallower

,


Well, they most likely aren't 1/4" shorter. That's a huge amount. Looks can be deceiving. If they are shorter I could imagine possibly 1-2mm. But, when you get back, I'd appreciate it if you could measure from the base of the shaft/top of the pot (where the pot would touch the inside of the control cavity) and the tip of the lugs.

the crucial point being both the other types are just a little too long, and the Gibson ones aren't.

Well, the crucial point is the actual depth (measurement) of the p/p pot.
I don't know about "The Paul" model...is it thinner than other Les Paul's? I've never had a problem fitting ANY p/p pot in a LP. It can be difficult (but not impossible) in an SG, but there's plenty of room in a LP.

[ThreeChordWonder]

Im not in a position to whip out my micrometer right now,, but...

From what I can see over the internetodolopis sat here in a café on vacation in Greece, the standard CTS plastic cased push-pull measures 25.5 mm (just over 1 inch - 25.4 mm) from the bottom of the shaft to the bottom of the casing. The Bournes / Fleor type are 27.7 mm, but that includes the ground tab, which can be cut off.

The Gibson ones' casings appear to be about the same depth as the potentiometer part. That typically measures 11.3 mm or about 7/16" giving about 7/8" or so total depth. The lugs on the push-pull of the Gibson ones do extend further. Those can, of course, be bent over to increase clearance.

As it happens I just changed the original Gibson pickups on my 2015 Gibson SG to SD P-Rails. I removed all the original Gibson electronics and boxed the stuff up with the pickups, ready to convert back to 99.9% original - solder being the other 0.1% - if or when I want to. Naturally the back cover fitted perfectly well with the Gibson push-pulls, but not with either the plastic cased CTS or the Bournes / Fleor types. I cut the ground tabs off the Fleors but the back plate still doesn't fit without bulging slightly. I'm going to make a "gasket" when I get home, maybe 1/16" thick, that will cure the bulge but still mean the cover is inside the cutout .

[eclecticsynergy]

Were The Paul and The SG known as heavy instruments? How do they sound compared to normal ones?

I think walnut is pretty dense, probably a bit heavier than mahog.
I don't remember The Paul being any heavier than most regular LPs; it's a thinner body after all.
Wouldn't surprise me if they averaged a bit heftier than similarly-sized LP Specials though.
And The SG probably would've been a tad heavier than most regular SGs, being the same size (I think).

Of course that's speaking in general terms - wood can vary enough that there may have been exceptions.

Tonewise I think walnut likely did add some fullness & depth to the sound.
The Paul sounded pretty big even with T-tops which are bright and not especially fat or rich.
A long tenon likely helped its sustain & liveliness a bit too.
I don't believe tenons affect tone much, but IME long tenon necks tend to feel more alive.

I was in a band for four years with a guy who played a The Paul. Never played a The SG, at least not that I can remember.
By '79 or '80 when these models came out I already knew SGs just don't match up well with my body geometry.

[Mincer]

I think walnut is pretty dense, probably a bit heavier than mahog.
I don't remember The Paul being any heavier than most regular LPs; it's a thinner body after all.
Wouldn't surprise me if they averaged a bit heftier than similarly-sized LP Specials though.
And The SG probably would've been a tad heavier than most regular SGs, being the same size (I think).

Of course that's speaking in general terms - wood can vary enough that there may have been exceptions.

Tonewise I think walnut likely did add some fullness & depth to the sound.
The Paul sounded pretty big even with T-tops which are bright and not especially fat or rich.
A long tenon likely helped its sustain & liveliness a bit too.
I don't believe tenons affect tone much, but IME long tenon necks tend to feel more alive.

I was in a band for four years with a guy who played a The Paul. Never played a The SG, at least not that I can remember.
By '79 or '80 when these models came out I already knew SGs just don't match up well with my body geometry.

Wasn't the Firebrand series walnut too? Or am I misrembering?

[eclecticsynergy]

Wasn't the Firebrand series walnut too? Or am I misrembering?

I've always thought they were directly descended from the Deluxe models in the The series.
These were all-mahogany I think, so the Firebrand LPs would be too. Likely the same for Firebrand SGs.

The Paul Deluxe had a black headstock overlay; there weren't too many made compared to the plain version.
Today when you see something referred to as a The Paul Deluxe it's usually a Firebrand.

Firebrand LPs got upgraded pickups - mostly Dirty Fingers, though some had Shaw PAFs.
Gibson stayed with ebony for the fretboards, but I'm not 100% sure the Firebrands still had long tenon necks.
Pretty sure the Firebrand 335-S was all maple; some of those had the fine-tuner tailpiece too.

[Mincer]

I've always thought they were directly descended from the Deluxe models in the The series.
These were all-mahogany I think, so the Firebrand LPs would be too. Likely the same for Firebrand SGs.

The Paul Deluxe had a black headstock overlay; there weren't too many made compared to the plain version.
Today when you see something referred to as a The Paul Deluxe it's usually a Firebrand.

Firebrand LPs got upgraded pickups - mostly Dirty Fingers, though some had Shaw PAFs.
Gibson stayed with ebony for the fretboards, but I'm not 100% sure the Firebrands still had long tenon necks.
Pretty sure the Firebrand 335-S was all maple; some of those had the fine-tuner tailpiece too.

Thanks for the lesson. You don't hear much about Gibsons from that era. That is the time period that my Howard Roberts is from.

[BluesMan335]

Rather than coil split, which is obsolete, check out spin-a-split which is far, more versatile. You can easily turn the neck tone pot into a 2nd volume pot, but for one coil of the neck pickup only. That allows you to get as much, or as little, or the 2nd coil as you want. Dialing down the 2nd coil adds treble and clarity, and reduces volume & mids, so you can clean up your sound. With coil split, you get all or nothing of the 2nd coil, and miss out on all the great in between tones of unbalanced coils, which were one of the things that made the original PAF's sound so good. When the coils on a humbucker aren't balanced, some single coil tone comes through, giving you a blend of single coil & humbucker. Very easy to wire, use the existing tone pot, no push-pull needed. Wiring diagram on this site.

[Mincer]

Rather than coil split, which is obsolete, check out spin-a-split which is far, more versatile. You can easily turn the neck tone pot into a 2nd volume pot, but for one coil of the neck pickup only. That allows you to get as much, or as little, or the 2nd coil as you want. Dialing down the 2nd coil adds treble and clarity, and reduces volume & mids, so you can clean up your sound. With coil split, you get all or nothing of the 2nd coil, and miss out on all the great in between tones of unbalanced coils, which were one of the things that made the original PAF's sound so good. When the coils on a humbucker aren't balanced, some single coil tone comes through, giving you a blend of single coil & humbucker. Very easy to wire, use the existing tone pot, no push-pull needed. Wiring diagram on this site.

I don't know if splitting is obsolete. In the right guitar, mixed with another split pickup, it can be great.

[BluesMan335]

I don't know if splitting is obsolete. In the right guitar, mixed with another split pickup, it can be great.

Spin-a-split includes coil split, with the 2nd coil dialed all the way down.

[Mincer]

Spin-a-split includes coil split, with the 2nd coil dialed all the way down.

But you have to dedicate a knob. I'd rather use that for tone or something.

[BluesMan335]

But you have to dedicate a knob. I'd rather use that for tone or something.

That's why I use it on neck HB's. I've never reduced the treble on a neck HB, I always want more high end and clarity.

[Mincer]

That's why I use it on neck HB's. I've never reduced the treble on a neck HB, I always want more high end and clarity.

Ha, see, I use the tone knob on both pickups all the time!

[sps1]

Im not in a position to whip out my micrometer right now,, but...

From what I can see over the internetodolopis sat here in a café on vacation in Greece, the standard CTS plastic cased push-pull measures 25.5 mm (just over 1 inch - 25.4 mm) from the bottom of the shaft to the bottom of the casing. The Bournes / Fleor type are 27.7 mm, but that includes the ground tab, which can be cut off.

The Gibson ones' casings appear to be about the same depth as the potentiometer part. That typically measures 11.3 mm or about 7/16" giving about 7/8" or so total depth. The lugs on the push-pull of the Gibson ones do extend further. Those can, of course, be bent over to increase clearance.

As it happens I just changed the original Gibson pickups on my 2015 Gibson SG to SD P-Rails. I removed all the original Gibson electronics and boxed the stuff up with the pickups, ready to convert back to 99.9% original - solder being the other 0.1% - if or when I want to. Naturally the back cover fitted perfectly well with the Gibson push-pulls, but not with either the plastic cased CTS or the Bournes / Fleor types. I cut the ground tabs off the Fleors but the back plate still doesn't fit without bulging slightly. I'm going to make a "gasket" when I get home, maybe 1/16" thick, that will cure the bulge but still mean the cover is inside the cutout .

No issues with the CTS P/P pots and "The Paul" they used 28mm of 37mm available. The body is a hair thicker than 1.75" - Inside cavity from inside of cover to base just under 1.5" - CTS P/P pot installed just over an inch 1.12"