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  • #16
    I suspect the - but do not know - that the Whole Lotta are Seymours current take on what Page would have been using or wanted. I mean, it is like 50 years later....

    Originally posted by Bad City
    He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

    Comment


    • #17
      A reply to Freefrog. I think my opinion has been formulated by being somewhat discerning about what is presented online, and while I can’t say my opinions are absolute, I am quite comfortable they can stand up to criticism.

      I don’t own any Throbak pickups and yet I know about the details that a vintage PAF pickup has due to Jon Gundry’s research, so this knowledge has only cost me time. Personally, I’m grateful he is prepared to share information.

      Getting on topic, you mentioned that Seymour had a Leesona 102, and perhaps imply SD offers the same product at a cheaper price. I disagree with this one several levels. I suppose the most obvious one is Throbak is a niche product and offer many versions of the PAF while I’m only aware of the Antiquity humbucker as being and apples to apples comparison.

      However, Jon states: “PE magnet wire is wound on the slug coils with the original Gibson Slug 101 winder and screw coils wound on the Leesona 102. The result is a complex tone with articulate clarity of the best PAF pickups of the 50's.”

      The slug 101 winder, may or may not make a tonal difference, but Jon is using the original equipment. Personally, I would unreserved buy his product if accuracy was a chief motivator. The SD Antiquity humbucker has been given a big rap in the past, though there are a lot of new products in this niche area now.

      As for CBS Fender pickups and Norlin T tops, these pickups aren’t without their charm. This is apparent by the number of companies offering grey bottom Fender single coils. I recently played a set of original T top again only two weeks ago against the PAF style pickups in my Les Paul. They were quite different, and both with their own charm. Output wise, they were very similar, the T tops measured 7.5K and PAF is 7K to 8.5K.

      The PAF output is nothing like the old Dimarzio Super Distortion pickup (made in 1972) with a ceramic magnet and a 13K coil.

      The old Dimarzio FS-1 is a high output Strat pickup is 14K with Alnico 5 magnets (again made in 1972), the output is much greater than either CBS or vintage Fender pickups.

      While I’d agree this doesn’t establish a trend of those times, there wasn’t much in the way of pickup builders then and these models are still available so they must have been popular for a very long time. I tend to believe Seymour Duncan was on a similar path at the time as there was demand for such a product.

      I think there is a big difference between artist inspired and the actual real item. The inspired pickup just has too many variables to be considered as being in the ballpark of the real thing. The Jim Wagner example of an association isn’t a good one as he wasn’t allowed to disassemble the guitar. He can measure resistance with a multimeter, though I can’t see him there with a gauss meter and an LCR meter too, and if he did the controls could interact with the pickups, not an ideal situation. How could you see if one or both coils of the neck pickup was rewound with formvar wire as suggested. What are the different resistance values between the coils?

      As for Bare Knuckle pickups, I believe there is an association with Gary Moore who was the former owner of the PG Les Paul and he used the Bare Knuckles set in his other Les Paul’s.



      Regards

      Mark

      ​​​​​​​

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mark Abbott View Post
        A reply to Freefrog. I think my opinion has been formulated by being somewhat discerning about what is presented online, and while I can’t say my opinions are absolute, I am quite comfortable they can stand up to criticism.

        I don’t own any Throbak pickups and yet I know about the details that a vintage PAF pickup has due to Jon Gundry’s research, so this knowledge has only cost me time. Personally, I’m grateful he is prepared to share information.

        Getting on topic, you mentioned that Seymour had a Leesona 102, and perhaps imply SD offers the same product at a cheaper price. I disagree with this one several levels. I suppose the most obvious one is Throbak is a niche product and offer many versions of the PAF while I’m only aware of the Antiquity humbucker as being and apples to apples comparison.

        However, Jon states: “PE magnet wire is wound on the slug coils with the original Gibson Slug 101 winder and screw coils wound on the Leesona 102. The result is a complex tone with articulate clarity of the best PAF pickups of the 50's.”

        The slug 101 winder, may or may not make a tonal difference, but Jon is using the original equipment. Personally, I would unreserved buy his product if accuracy was a chief motivator. The SD Antiquity humbucker has been given a big rap in the past, though there are a lot of new products in this niche area now.

        As for CBS Fender pickups and Norlin T tops, these pickups aren’t without their charm. This is apparent by the number of companies offering grey bottom Fender single coils. I recently played a set of original T top again only two weeks ago against the PAF style pickups in my Les Paul. They were quite different, and both with their own charm. Output wise, they were very similar, the T tops measured 7.5K and PAF is 7K to 8.5K.

        The PAF output is nothing like the old Dimarzio Super Distortion pickup (made in 1972) with a ceramic magnet and a 13K coil.

        The old Dimarzio FS-1 is a high output Strat pickup is 14K with Alnico 5 magnets (again made in 1972), the output is much greater than either CBS or vintage Fender pickups.

        While I’d agree this doesn’t establish a trend of those times, there wasn’t much in the way of pickup builders then and these models are still available so they must have been popular for a very long time. I tend to believe Seymour Duncan was on a similar path at the time as there was demand for such a product.

        I think there is a big difference between artist inspired and the actual real item. The inspired pickup just has too many variables to be considered as being in the ballpark of the real thing. The Jim Wagner example of an association isn’t a good one as he wasn’t allowed to disassemble the guitar. He can measure resistance with a multimeter, though I can’t see him there with a gauss meter and an LCR meter too, and if he did the controls could interact with the pickups, not an ideal situation. How could you see if one or both coils of the neck pickup was rewound with formvar wire as suggested. What are the different resistance values between the coils?

        As for Bare Knuckle pickups, I believe there is an association with Gary Moore who was the former owner of the PG Les Paul and he used the Bare Knuckles set in his other Les Paul’s.

        https://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk...ure-guitarist#

        Regards

        Mark

        ​​​​​​​
        I've said this morning that I wouldn't argue, so this answer is only meant to precise my thoughts.


        1-I don't think to have criticized your opinion by expressing my own perspective.

        2-My remark about the Leesona 102 was not implying that Antiquities = the same sound than Throbak but cheaper. In my mind Jon and Seymour each make a personal use of the same machine : pickups like the DT102 and SH1 sound according to the choices of their respective designers, exactly like the same meal done by two master cookers would have different flavours, even done with the same ingredients and in the same kitchen.

        IMO.


        3-Agreed about the charm of CBS SC's and Norlin era T-Tops, since I played them back in the days... For the record, one of my favourite HB's of these last 40 years is a patent sticker T-Top in a vintage SG that I've personally repaired. Many people rediscover these oldies now that high gain amps exist and that technology allows a better signal to noise ratio...
        Now and to be clear, I've NOT said nor even suggested that vintage pickups had the same output than newer high gain ones. I've said that Fender CBS and Gibson Norlin had mounted weak pickups feeding the regret of stronger vintage recipes + opening a market for higher gain transducers... IOW, SH1 and SH4 or SSL1 and SSL5 would be born from the same relative weakness of stock Fender / Gibson PU's and it's easy to check by reading INDUCTANCE, which is much more reliable than DCR when it comes to output: Fender L series PU's (and SSL1's) go up to 2.6H. CBS PU's measure a tiny 2H or less. P.A.F. 's read 4H to 5H while T-Tops are typically in the 3.5H to 3.8H range, with thinner smaller magnets less gaussed than RC mags in P.A.F.s... So, while vintage PU's are not high gain, they are still beefier than CBS / Norlin transducers. That's what I was trying to say, no more, no less.

        Side note: a DiMarzio Super Dist has the same inductance than... a typical P90 and the same basic architecture than... a Filter'Tron(!): cumbersome symmetrical magnetic poles, double thick mag under the coils, sonic use of Foucault currents... What Larry DiMarzio dues to Ray Butts is still to recognize here if we want to think twice about timelines.

        4-Anyway, I tend to attribute the surviving success of "old" hi gain pickups to the influence of people who have used it when there were no high gain devices, no noise gates and so on. Personally, at least, if I still use a DiMarzio Super Dist, it's partly by nostalgia, partly because it's the right tool for some covers that I play... but to be honest, I find it to be a one trick pony much more than vintage PU's of any era. This character is more present to me than the (not so clear) place of DiMarzio products in a timeline.

        5-Yes, Gary Moore (a hero of mine) did use the BK pickups as he had used many pickups during his carreer... Ironically, I even think to remember him promoting some "hot" aftermarket HB's that he had mounted once in Greeny and that he prefered to the original pickups (!)...

        All that being said, I still think that any hand wound BK sounds like a hand wound BK because it has been designed and built by Tim Mills. That was my point and in my humble mind, it relativizes timelines (whatever is their interest that I don't deny).

        Regarding the measurements done by Jim Wagner, I could do long comments about the precious infos that a pickup can give, even if treated like a black box, as long as the right lab gear and methodology are used... But that's another story. The kind of story that even Jon Gundry wouldn't share to conqueer the esteem of potential customers... ;-))
        Last edited by freefrog; 07-02-2022, 01:43 PM.
        Duncan user since the 80's...

        Comment


        • #19
          Antiquities are definitely not the only PAF type pickups made by Duncan.
          • Seth Lover set, made to the patent specs, rather than the variations from the original production
          • 59 set
          • Alnico 2 Pro set
          • Pearly Gates set
          • The Queenbucker set
          • Greenie set
          • Eric Steckel 'Candy' set
          • Bonnamassa Magellan
          • Bonnamassa Skinnerburst
          • Bonnamassa Amos
          (Someone can correct me if any of these depart too far from the PAF recipe in terms of wire gauge or wire type, etc.)

          While Duncan may or may not have a particular vintage piece of winding gear (like the specific Gibson slug winder - I don't know if they do or they don't), what I do know about Duncan's process from employee descriptions and their own blog and video information is that Seymour and MJ have unwound and analyzed original samples of numerous pickups they make models of and have kept rigorous notes about turns per layer, wind patterns, etc. in addition to conducting comprehensive testing on the affects of magnets and wire tension during winding and how the wire is packed on the bobbin, etc. So if they've had a vintage pickup in hand and have analyzed it, personally, I would trust they know exactly how to recreate it, even if they had to use different equipment to make it happen.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by maug2122 View Post
            Jimi probably had Abigail Ybarra back engineer Seymour's pickups back at the winding both at the Fender plant.
            Somewhere around here, I have an old Fender catalog that shows Seymour and Abigail collaborating. Maybe they just shared notes with each other.

            Comment


            • #21
              I think that if a set actually had collaboration from the artist, the copy clearly states that. Without that express description, I would think the rest are 'inspired by'.
              Administrator of the SDUGF

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by freefrog View Post

                I've said this morning that I wouldn't argue, so this answer is only meant to precise my thoughts.

                1-I don't think to have criticized your opinion by expressing my own perspective.
                I’m okay about being proven wrong by someone, if I’m wrong/incorrect/ill informed and am corrected then I can make better decisions.

                ”Seymour has one of the Leesona 102 Gibson Winders but Duncan's wound on it are not as pricey as the Throbak PU's wound on the same machine.”
                That comment did come across as possibly derogatory, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope it’s come across that way.

                Jim Wagner, at WCR, has measured the specs of this axe @ the Dallas Guitar Show, can we claim his set is more authentic than others, while he winds humbuckers by hands and while P.A.F.'s were machine wound? This objection stands for Bare Knuckle as well, albeit all the winders that I mention offer really fine PU's, IMHO.
                The measurements have to capture real information that allow an accurate reproduction to be made, that is the real unknown. I don’t doubt Jim Wagner makes great pickups, I just don’t know if it stands up to a side by side comparison with the real thing, they might sound better, but of course that’s not the same.

                I could do long comments about the precious infos that a pickup can give, even if treated like a black box, as long as the right lab gear and methodology are used.
                I’m game if you are.

                Regards

                Mark Abbott

                Comment


                • #23
                  A last (?) answer in the name of clarity...

                  Originally posted by Mark Abbott View Post
                  That comment did come across as possibly derogatory, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope it’s come across that way.
                  My comment was not derogatory for Throbak... A decade ago, an old friend of mine, local luthier-winder (now retired but for whom I still work), was crying on the phone with me. Reason: some troll on the Web had posted destructive sentences about his products. So I'd certainly not do the same against another artisan.

                  Jon Gundry drives a small company, have bought expensive tools and source specific materials. He HAS to sell his products at boutique prices. He has apparently decided to justify these prices by sharing information on the Net. The bet seems to be that educated musicians will accept to put more money on pickups because they understand their cost.

                  It's a totally respectable attitude and I find Throbak vids really well done.

                  Duncan is obviously a bigger company working on different principles when it comes to costs, shared informations and... advertising: there's logically a capitalization on what Seymour did for famous artists and not as much volontee to educate customers, potentially because many of them don't care about science behind pickups. it was my case when I was 18, after all: I did see Duncan or DiMarzio or Lawrence as famous names, making me sure that their pickups were the ones to have.

                  But it doesn't deny the presence of work and knowledge behind the curtain @ Duncan corp. At least as much work and knowledge than what Jon has at disposal, albeit used differently. That was my peaceful point.


                  The measurements have to capture real information that allow an accurate reproduction to be made, that is the real unknown. I don’t doubt Jim Wagner makes great pickups, I just don’t know if it stands up to a side by side comparison with the real thing, they might sound better, but of course that’s not the same.
                  Jim Wagner winds fine pickups like Tim Mills and hundreds of other pickups makers. Each has his personality, impacting the design of pickups, sourcing of materials, building process etc. The result is that many brands have a recognizable "voice" or at least a defined sonic footprint.

                  Hence my tendency to take the idea of "accurate reproduction" with a (respectful) grain of salt : a P.A.F. clone made with contemporary materials by someone who wasn't "there" @ the Gibson plant always risks to sound unlike "the real thing", even if/when it has been made with the same tools and should be strictly identical in theory.

                  Paradoxically, it might even be necessary to adapt the original pickups recipes to contemporary materials in order to obtain the same sound than yesteryears... And I write this after having compared (more than once) vintage transducers to modern clones with lab gear. ;-)

                  I’m game if you are.
                  To keep it short and the most objective possible, I'll reply with an external example.

                  I've still here a Line6 Variax 500, bought brand new in 2003.

                  When Line6 engineers tested vintage instruments to capture their voice, they didn't dissect these guitars. Lab measurements were done with guitars as they were, if memory serves me. Each instrument was treated as a black box.

                  And Line 6 did a pretty good job: they cracked the code of each vintage instrument without opening it - even if the sonic results are limited by the hardware used to build Variax guitars. Once again, the "voice" inherent to the product shapes the final tone... :-)


                  FWIW: another answer from before my morning coffee, a Sunday morning. The house is still asleep so I could ramble a bit... <:0x


                  Duncan user since the 80's...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    IIRC Peter Green's Les Paul was a 59 with original PAFs. He was messing about with the wiring and although he put the thing back together as it was generally, he accidentally flipped the neck magnet, resulting in an out of phase neck pickup. I don't recall there being any push-pulls or anything. Any wax loss was purely accidental, I expect, and I also expect he never bothered getting them re-potted.

                    So...

                    If you're after the "Peter Green" sound, get an original set of PAFs or modern copies as close to the originals as possible, flip the magnet in the neck, and that's as close as you'll get guitar wise.

                    That just leaves you to figure out the amp, pedals (none I believe), cables, microphone, mixind desk settings, tape recorder, tape...

                    Finally you'll need Greenie's fingers.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      There will always be players with something in their head (and money willing to pay for) exactly what their heroes use or used. Other players grab the basic formula and that's good enough. I've never chased a sound so thoroughly, so I don't sweat what I think is the small stuff. There is room for all types out there (and shades of grey in between). I think companies have to strike a balance if they want to make more than one pickup at a time here and there, much less sell to a worldwide audience.
                      Administrator of the SDUGF

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ThreeChordWonder View Post
                        IIRC Peter Green's Les Paul was a 59 with original PAFs. He was messing about with the wiring and although he put the thing back together as it was generally, he accidentally flipped the neck magnet, resulting in an out of phase neck pickup. I don't recall there being any push-pulls or anything. Any wax loss was purely accidental, I expect, and I also expect he never bothered getting them re-potted.
                        FWIW (I honestly don't know what is the actual correct story, but..) an alternate version I had read was that his neck pickup went out, or at least one coil failed, and he took it to a tech who rewound the failed coil(s) and put it back together with the magnet flipped. But the sound was useful so PG kept it that way. I believe the correct recipe for a Greenie set would be one of the neck coils unbalanced and possibly with different wire? But original PAFs wouldn't have been potted in the first place. I don't think that became a thing until higher gain amps were in frequent use. Can't remember the year that started.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by beaubrummels View Post

                          FWIW (I honestly don't know what is the actual correct story, but..) an alternate version I had read was that his neck pickup went out, or at least one coil failed, and he took it to a tech who rewound the failed coil(s) and put it back together with the magnet flipped. But the sound was useful so PG kept it that way. I believe the correct recipe for a Greenie set would be one of the neck coils unbalanced and possibly with different wire? But original PAFs wouldn't have been potted in the first place. I don't think that became a thing until higher gain amps were in frequent use. Can't remember the year that started.
                          i read that somewhere that the neck was rewound with formvar wire (not enamel), don’t know if that is true. when i hear peter green i think old farts sound but he has a really nice expressive touch!
                          how much of the sound of those old recordings is the pickup anyway?

                          that jimi hendrix story is really stupid. why would you make a messed up stagger for a left hand player???

                          i have a high voltage set and i think for an authentic AC/DC sound you’re better of with a t-top but man those things feel great! i don’t think i will ever sell them.
                          the story on those is also very believable.

                          but i agree, duncan chooses their wording carefully so they don’t make false claims.
                          not a lot of those sets are actually on any recording

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