Guitar wire capacity.

[CarlosG]

Hi!
I'm wonder which wire has less capacity, vintage single conductor or new 4 conductor?
And Has anyone compared twisted teflon wires with cloth wires?

And I'm know guitar cable has most capacity, but I want to do most less signal lost guitar wiring

[GuitarDoc]

I'm not sure what you mean by "capacity" of the guitar wire. If you mean which wire can handle the most voltage or current, it really doesn't matter since the voltage or current and the length of the runs in guitar circuits is essentially negligible. Any gauge wire larger than 30 can easily handle any guitar circuit, it just matters what you are most comfortable using.

I've never tried the twisted teflon wire you're referring to but, again, it's just what you are comfortable using. Whether the insulated covering is cloth, rubber, plastic, silicone, teflon, etc, they all function fine. I personally like the 26 gauge silicone covered twisted wire because it is very "limp" and so easy for me to work with (it also fits easily thru the eyelets of micro switch lugs).

[Mincer]

Capacitance? I can't say I've noticed a difference when it comes to pickup wire. Anyone else?

[GuitarDoc]

Capacitance? I can't say I've noticed a difference when it comes to pickup wire. Anyone else?

There is such relatively minimal amount of wire in a guitar circuit that unless you're using a very tiny gauge, you're not going to notice a difference.

[freefrog]

Hi!
I'm wonder which wire has less capacity, vintage single conductor or new 4 conductor?
And Has anyone compared twisted teflon wires with cloth wires?

And I'm know guitar cable has most capacity, but I want to do most less signal lost guitar wiring

Average 4 conductors cable has potentially more capacitance than run of the mill coaxial cable (= what you name single conductor), since it adds to each coil two wires close to each other (and to the other wires), pressed in +/- 1 ft of cable.

4 conductors also changes the capacitive balance between coils, generating potentially a comb filtering effect beyond the main resonant frequency. I've devoted to this question a good part of a topic on the music-electronics forum, in the "pickups theory" section.

Dual coaxial cable is not always less capacitive, that said. Braided shielded wire (= what you name cloth wire, I suppose) is by nature more capacitive than plastic insulated equivalents. And if the cotton insulation stores moisture coming from inside the guitar, it becomes even more capacitive, as measured here by a German scientist: https://youtu.be/AUigjP6t4aI?t=2270

512pF is the value of a standard guitar cable long of 3.5m to 4.5m, for the record. As you can see, the same value is measured there on only 44cm of braided shielded cable, because of moisture...

If you want a good 4 conductors cable without too much stray capacitance, use some grey Mogami (with blue, white, red, copper inner wires + bare grounding one). That's what my friend winder used for his most expensive models.

I've measured a very low stray capacitance on teflon insulated coaxial cable but the model that I've tested was physically a bit too rigid for a guitar wiring (I don't remember its brand right now, sorry).

HTH.

[freefrog]

NOTE-Below is a link towards my topic on MEF... but there's apparently a problem of invalid security certificate on this web page. :-/

At least that's what my browser tells me from Europe. Please, tell-me if you have the same issue.

https://music-electronics-forum.com/forum/instrumentation/pickup-makers/pickup-theory/964621-inner-stray-capacitance-of-passive-mag-transducers-a-few-thoughts?view=thread

[freefrog]

After a quick ride in my archived data, here are a few capacitive values PER METER, measured with our lab capacitance meter.

-Mogami 4 conductors cable : 87 pF between one wire + shield and another wire.

-Average coaxial cable (black outer plastic coating): 242pF.

-Average coaxial cable (yellow outer plastic coating): 250pF.

-Average braided shielded coaxial cable : 268pF in DRY air. But the Duncan Seymourized vintage braided shielded cable, with yellow dots on black cloth around white cotton inside, measures 240pF only in dry air (which seems logical, since the outside shield is more loosely braided around the center conductor with this old cable).

-Another average coaxial cable, Korean made: 384pF (!!! It's 3 times more than an average guitar cable)....


I've still to find where I've put my measurements about teflon insulated wire. EDIT: 90pF and 96pF per meter for two different PTFE insulated coaxial models.


And I feel necessary to put such data in perspective:

-Firstly and to correct my first answer: a 4 conductors cable is not necessarily more capacitive in itself from wire to wire. It's even less, in fact... For instance, a DiMarzio 4 conductors wire measures 193pF per meter between bare wire + green and white wire. BUT 193pF is the capacitance for ONE coil (the grounded one) in this case... if we measure the capacitance between black and red, it adds 160pF = 253pF of TOTAL parasitic capacitance from the cable, for both coils.

-In the case above, one coil is connected to a parasitic capacitive load of 193pF and the other coil to 160pF. It changes the pickup in a double-tuned device. Each coil has its own resonant frequency. Reason why, altogether, they are affected by a comb filtering effect in the high harmonic range.

-The effect of this comb filtering due to 4 conductors wiring is variable and even random since solder on the pots etc. will also change parasitic/stray capacitance... In most cases, it alters very high frequencies and the effect can't be heard. In some cases (not that rare), the comb filtering happens lower in the audio spectrum and it CAN be heard (not always in a detrimental way: it can give more sparkle to pickups or it can smooth nicely their high range, depending how and to what the 4 conductors are connected).
As I said in a recent answer here, DiMarzio Dual-Resonance is nothing else than a way to take this phenomenon in account, either by correcting either by aggravating the stray capacitance of the 4 conductors cable, thanks to the stray capacitance of each coil...


BTW, if you want to mimic Dual-Resonance with a 2 conductors pickup hosting symetrical coils, it's not that hard: it requires a resistor in series or in parallel with one coil + a capacitor of very low value to ground at the junction between coils... :-P
But a lab meter would be useful to check the result, as well as a way to induce the resonant frequencies of the coils. ;-)

[Wound_Up]

Average 4 conductors cable has potentially more capacitance than run of the mill coaxial cable (= what you name single conductor), since it adds to each coil two wires close to each other (and to the other wires), pressed in +/- 1 ft of cable.

4 conductors also changes the capacitive balance between coils, generating potentially a comb filtering effect beyond the main resonant frequency. I've devoted to this question a good part of a topic on the music-electronics forum, in the "pickups theory" section.

Dual coaxial cable is not always less capacitive, that said. Braided shielded wire (= what you name cloth wire, I suppose) is by nature more capacitive than plastic insulated equivalents. And if the cotton insulation stores moisture coming from inside the guitar, it becomes even more capacitive, as measured here by a German scientist: https://youtu.be/AUigjP6t4aI?t=2270

512pF is the value of a standard guitar cable long of 3.5m to 4.5m, for the record. As you can see, the same value is measured there on only 44cm of braided shielded cable, because of moisture...

If you want a good 4 conductors cable without too much stray capacitance, use some grey Mogami (with blue, white, red, copper inner wires + bare grounding one). That's what my friend winder used for his most expensive models.

I've measured a very low stray capacitance on teflon insulated coaxial cable but the model that I've tested was physically a bit too rigid for a guitar wiring (I don't remember its brand right now, sorry).

HTH.

Cloth wire is actual wire with a cloth covering, like what you find in vintage Fender guitars, I believe. Just like how most wire has a vinyl or pvc coating? This wire has a cloth cover. Actual cloth. Not braided steel wire.

Judging by his question, I'd guess he meant actual cloth covered wire since it's being compared to teflon covering.

[freefrog]

Cloth wire is actual wire with a cloth covering, like what you find in vintage Fender guitars, I believe. Just like how most wire has a vinyl or pvc coating? This wire has a cloth cover. Actual cloth. Not braided steel wire.

Judging by his question, I'd guess he meant actual cloth covered wire since it's being compared to teflon covering.

...So I've not understood the question in the same way than you... ;-)

... probably because the question of stray capacitance is potentially negligible if not irrelevant with separate cloth (or plastic) insulated wires... precisely because they are separate...
If they are pressed on each other along their whole lenght, yep, such wires might develop some stray capacitance... but the problem of parasitic capacitive load is mainly due to the kind of cables used for P90's and humbuckers, hence my answers above... :-)

[beaubrummels]

The difference is negligible and insignificant. Only Eric Johnson and chihuahuas will notice a difference.

[freefrog]

If the Dual-Resonance principle relies in fact on capacitive differences, it's because it can be absolutely significant sonically and there's lab data about that in my topic on MEF. It shares for free a part of my work for a pickup winder, that I've personally helped to correct a humbucker design plagued by stray capacitance (it had a nasty peak @ 11hz due to the double-tuning effect and I've solved it).

Even with single coils, it's not negligible: a low stray capacitance of the coil + its wires is what gives more clarity once the volume control lowered. The first post in my topic on MEF includes detailed screenshots and explanations about that.

[Chistopher]

After a quick ride in my archived data, here are a few capacitive values PER METER, measured with our lab capacitance meter.

-Mogami 4 conductors cable : 87 pF between one wire + shield and another wire.

-Average coaxial cable (black outer plastic coating): 242pF.

-Average coaxial cable (yellow outer plastic coating): 250pF.

-Average braided shielded coaxial cable : 268pF in DRY air. But the Duncan Seymourized vintage braided shielded cable, with yellow dots on black cloth around white cotton inside, measures 240pF only in dry air (which seems logical, since the outside shield is more loosely braided around the center conductor with this old cable).

-Another average coaxial cable, Korean made: 384pF (!!!)....


I've still to find where I've put my measurements about teflon insulated wire. EDIT: 90pF and 96pF per meter for two different PTFE insulated coaxial models.


And I feel necessary to put such data in perspective:

-Firstly and to correct my first answer: a 4 conductors cable is not necessarily more capacitive in itself from wire to wire. It's even less, in fact... For instance, a DiMarzio 4 conductors wire measures 193pF per meter between bare wire + green and white wire. BUT 193pF is the capacitance for ONE coil (the grounded one) in this case... if we measure the capacitance between black and red, it adds 160pF = 253pF of TOTAL parasitic capacitance from the cable, for both coils.

-In the case above, one coil is connected to a parasitic capacitive load of 193pF and the other coil to 160pF. It changes the pickup in a double-tuned device. Each coil has its own resonant frequency. Reason why, altogether, they are affected by a comb filtering effect in the high harmonic range.

-The effect of this comb filtering due to 4 conductors wiring is variable and even random since solder on the pots etc. will also change parasitic/stray capacitance... In most cases, it alters very high frequencies and the effect can't be heard. In some cases (not that rare), the comb filtering happens lower in the audio spectrum and it CAN be heard (not always in a detrimental way: it can give more sparkle to pickups or it can smooth nicely their high range, depending how and to what the 4 conductors are connected).
As I said in a recent answer here, DiMarzio Dual-Resonance is nothing else than a way to take this phenomenon in account, either by correcting either by aggravating the stray capacitance of the 4 conductors cable, thanks to the stray capacitance of each coil...


BTW, if you want to mimic Dual-Resonance with a 2 conductors pickup hosting symetrical coils, it's not that hard: it requires a resistor in series or in parallel with one coil + a capacitor of very low value to ground at the junction between coils... :-P
But a lab meter would be useful to check the result, as well as a way to induce the resonant frequencies of the coils. ;-)

To put these capacitance values in perspective, 384 picofarads equals 0.000383 uF, or roughly %1 the capacitance of your tone control. If you calculate these values into a low pass filter (1/2piRC), what that means is that with crappy wire, your guitar can filter out a few more radio frequencies than it's supposed to.

[freefrog]

To put these capacitance values in perspective, 384 picofarads equals 0.000383 uF, or roughly %1 the capacitance of your tone control. If you calculate these values into a low pass filter (1/2piRC), what that means is that with crappy wire, your guitar can filter out a few more radio frequencies than it's supposed to.

You're absolutely right... But having passed years on these questions, I'd say it's "a bit" more complex than this. ;-)

I won't drown you and our fellow members in some boring rewording of my posts 5 and 11 above. Anyone is free to think about what I've shared here or elsewhere and the great thing is that my statements can be checked experimentally by anyone. I'll share on request necessary informations allowing to do that, within the limits of intellectual property. :-)

[freefrog]

Now and if I can add a general footnote: capacitance of the whole wiring harness also contributes in unexpected proportions to the sound of some famous guitars. With a typical Gibson style braided shielded wiring, a same pickup should have a way lower pitched resonant peak (and therefore noticeably less sparkle) in a LP or Explorer than in a Flying V or ES335, for instance, just because of the longer / more capacitive cables going back and forth between pots and switch. The end of the video mentioned in my post 5 talks about that (in German but there's automatic translators now on YT). See @ 40:40... EDIT: No, my bad! It's after 41:30 and involves a LP vs a SG.

[freefrog]

Ok. Some other nerdy geeky contributions doomed to be ignored... and subject to change without notice. :-P


Firstly, I FULLY AGREE and have always agreed that a few dozens of picoFarads are not going to do significant differences with average pickups + hot/ground wires, volume pot fully open, all other things being equal.



That being said, here is the result of an experiment that I've done these last hours, in a few minutes, for the fun (mine, at least).

I've changed the 4 conductors cable of a humbucker (the whole cable, coming from the coils). I've paired it to a 500k volume pot and a standard 20' guitar cable. Then I've measured the resonant peaks of its coils, electrically excited.

Below is the result on a linear scale. Black and red = the response of the coils through some DiMarzio 4 conductors cable. Green and blue = the same thing through some low capacitance Mogami 4 conductors cable.



Vertical "steps" are increments of 1dB only. The resonances happen around 3khz with the Mogami cable and a few hundreds hz lower with the DiMarzio cable. It's not enough to be really "heard". It's enough to be "felt" through more lively and complex harmonics.

The "crossover" between red and black lines around 11khz also illustrates how increased wiring capacitance alters the balance between coils. This effect is NOT significant sonically in THIS case. Much more drastic changes can be seen with other PU's, in my topic on MEF...

What I'm trying to say (again) is that wiring capacitance makes more or less difference according to the pickup(s) and wires concretely involved.

Now, let's share below the response of a same bridge Duncan SH1 played in chords in a Flying V (orange) and an Explorer (blue). Same 500k pots, cable, strings etc. Under 1khz, differences are mostly due to the acoustic resonance of these instruments. The Explorer is bassier because of the bigger chunk of wood involved. Beyond 1khz, what makes the difference is mainly the capacitance of the inner wiring harness. This time, we're talking about a gap going up to 9dB between 2khz and 10khz.

If I used low Capacitance cable to rewire the Explorer (wiring harness AND pickups), the difference would be noticeably reduced. Later, maybe...

FWIW.