A dumb question - JB/Distortion hybrid?

[Seashore]

It no doubt has some things beyond the engineering "stats"

And what is real vs what we believe are of course, two different things.

But is is clear that the magnets of a JB and a Distortion are quite different. And it is also quite clear that the winds are not the same. However, people who have done the experiment tend to believe that either they are the same or are practically the same, so as to the magnet being the primary differentiator.

And for someone going to the effort of making a Hybrid, it does make a difference.

I propose the OP record their JB, record their distortion, then record the hybrid. Set the pickups up the same, play the same music, and put a blind recording up with samples of each, and see if we can tell.

It is the only way to be sure!

I realize you think the whole JB/Distortion question is settled, my initial hybrid idea is pointless, and this isn't a serious suggestion. I'm a lot less interested in trying to prove a point about the pickups than I am in my Gibson having a bridge pickup that makes me happy. I'm good with what I got out of the project.

The Distortion is in a good home right now so I was happy to leave it as is. If I do wind up putting the JB slug coil and maybe an A5 in there at some point, I'll record some before and afters. Dealing with those active mount housings is a pain.

I did record a couple of samples to a click with the following pickups, heard in order: 7str Distortion (in a 26.5 Schecter with a Floyd); the original 7str JB (in a 24.75 Gibson LP); the new 7str JB/BKP "Brute Force" neck model hybrid (in the same Gibson LP); 6str BKP Rebel Yell (in a 24.75 Gibson Explorer). There are two different boring riffs and they each rotate through the same pickups. I don't know how to embed a Soundcloud player on this board, but here's a link:

https://on.soundcloud.com/3F5eb

The differences are apparent, and the long scale guitar is the outlier, but there's no denying you'd hear a much more drastic difference just moving the microphone a little. This project was not about finding the perfect magic EQ curve. The JB was too compressed and I was digging in too hard to try and get the response I wanted. The hybrid makes it easier. It's subtle. It's more about how hard I have to work to get a sound I like than the sound itself.

I'm still setting everything up in the new space and I might double mic the VHT cab, but I'm close to having something I can use with this setup. It's my guitar into a VHT Pittbull 100CL and a VHT Deliverance 4x12, recorded with an SM7B into a Golden Age Pre73, Focusrite interface.

Here's another couple riffs with just the hybrid pickup:

https://on.soundcloud.com/2QKtR

[GuitarDoc]

This has been a very interesting thread/debate. And it proves one thing, for sure...we are all different, we hear things differently and we "know" things differently.

There is a potentially huge difference between what one could absolutely believe ("know") and what is absolute fact/truth/reality.

In a blind test, someone could be given 2 JBs and swear there is enough difference in "how they sound to him" that they are in fact 2 completely different pickups. He could also be given a JB and a DD with the same magnet and swear that they "sound enough alike to his ears" that they must be the same pickup. This all due to the tolerances of each pup and innumerable other variables (and of his ears at any given time).

If we could all differentiate between what we "know" (believe), and what is absolutely fact, there would be no need for psychiatrists/psychologists. The human mind is AMAZING, but it is also very quirky.

[orpheo]

A5 DD compared to JB: 1. Overall modern character compared to JB's more natural character. 2. Rings clean bottom to top without JB's mid clog. 3. Fizzy mids. 4. Firmer more solid bass not cut up like JB's. 5. More of a true top end.

I concur with this analyses; I have made DDalnico5 as well, because at first I was under the impression that the DD=JB, but it is NOT. I noticed it to the extreme when I tried the jb/fullshred hybrid against the distortion/fullshred hybrid and the black winter/fullshred hybrid. The differences were just too great. All the same magnet, baseplate, and fullshred coil, but different 'other'. If the other coil was all the same, the pickups would sound the same but it didn't. By making the hybrid, the differences were exacerbated.

DD=/=JB coil. That's my analysis. Do with that what you will. DCR is a poor measurement and always has been.

[orpheo]

No, they're the exact same. See attachments.



There's so many options, I wouldn't know where to begin helping. But if you already replaced your pickup and are happy with it, great. I just don't want you to waste time doing something that's a lot of work and wouldn't really change anything.
If you really do want a Distortion/JB hybrid, contact the Custom Shop and request a Distortion with Ceramic on the 3 bottom strings, and Alnico 5 on the 3 top ones. They can definitely do it, and it'll sound great.

How would this work. The Distortion's ceramic magnet is doublethick, and alnico is regular. Also, how would you split it?! It's a bar magnet afterall.

[Aceman]

I think part of the problem lies in people relying on resistance as the sole measure of similarity. There are other characteristics in the construction that define a particular pickup.

It no doubt has some things beyond the engineering "stats"

And what is real vs what we believe are of course, two different things.

But is is clear that the magnets of a JB and a Distortion are quite different. And it is also quite clear that the winds are not the same. However, people who have done the experiment tend to believe that either they are the same or are practically the same, so as to the magnet being the primary differentiator.

And for someone going to the effort of making a Hybrid, it does make a difference.

I propose the OP record their JB, record their distortion, then record the hybrid. Set the pickups up the same, play the same music, and put a blind recording up with samples of each, and see if we can tell.

It is the only way to be sure!

[beaubrummels]

I think part of the problem lies in people relying on resistance as the sole measure of similarity. There are other characteristics in the construction that define a particular pickup.

[Clint 55]

Here's the thing, I'm entitled to determine what is factual from my dedicated observations. If someone denies me that, they're being uncivil. That's like if I said I found my strat to sound jangly and someone told me that's only a belief of mine. That's absurd. I've spent hours with an A5 Distortion and it is plain old a different pickup. There are not 1 but several qualities which differentiate it from a JB. Only 1 different quality would prove they're different but there are several. A5 DD compared to JB: 1. Overall modern character compared to JB's more natural character. 2. Rings clean bottom to top without JB's mid clog. 3. Fizzy mids. 4. Firmer more solid bass not cut up like JB's. 5. More of a true top end.

[Mincer]

Let's be civil to each other here. They may be the same, they may be so close that it doesn't matter.

Does it really matter? People can research past threads on this and there is truth in there. But don't cling to your beliefs so much that you can't be cool to other members here.

[Aceman]

The only reason I commented on this post is because OP was thinking of going through a lot of work and time for a project that I think wouldn't be worth the result,

Well then we all agree.

[Gabrielinconfident]

#3 I'm not even going to get into the whole Chinese vs Chilean copper. Variance? Yes. Detectable by human ears? Doubtful. I guess Dogs and Eric Johnson might be able to tell the difference

Here's what you said in the message I to which I was replying:
"If you swap mags JB to Double Ceramic, or Distortion to A5, you get very (extremely) close"
So it's so close that you don't care about the minimal difference, but different enough that it negates material tolerances? You're saying they're "too similar to tell apart", but also too different to just say it's the same design? Pick one.

Anyway, I don't care what you guys think. The only reason I commented on this post is because OP was thinking of going through a lot of work and time for a project that I think wouldn't be worth the result, and I think there are better alternatives to achieving a middle-ground between those two models. I was only trying to be helpful and save the guy some time and effort. If you yourself think the end result of swapping coils is too close to the original pickups, I hope you agree. But this polemic is pointless; I talked to people at SD and they said it was the same coils, you talked to people at SD and they said they're different coils. Who knows, maybe someone lied, maybe they were mistaken, maybe the design was slightly changed over the years without it being publicised. Regardless, people are getting needlessly angry, attacking me, and now I'm wasting my time defending a position that has no consequence in anyone's life.

[Gabrielinconfident]

Seriously cut the bull ****. The JB and Distortion with alnico in it are 2 of my favorite bridge pickups. I've not only tested both pickups with the same magnet, I've spent hours and hours with them. I know for a fact they're separate pickups. If you actually stfu, get off the forum, clean the wax out of ur ear, turn off the distortion box, and compare the 2 pickups with the same mag, you'd see how obvious it is. Stfu with the you heard a rumor so it must be true.

Nice ad hominem you got there. And language. Very mature.

[Aceman]

As I said in other messages, if you take 50 JBs or 50 DDs, you'll get "very extremely close" tones, but not exactly the same, because if the copper ore came from Chile or China, it'll be slightly different. You're being obnoxious for no reason; 10 years ago in this very forum everyone already knew DD and JB have the same coils, I have no idea why it has since become a debate.

#1 I am stating a fact - as presented by multiple people we know and trust, as well as from multiple people with multiple encounters with Duncan employees who really do know.
- You are arguing against facts that people know to be true.
- Read what Beaubrummels posted, the three links. Tell me that is wrong.

#2 10 years ago in this very forum people were wrong, and you can see they have changed their tune because of what was presented by the people in Beaubrummels post(s)

#3 I'm not even going to get into the whole Chinese vs Chilean copper. Variance? Yes. Detectable by human ears? Doubtful. I guess Dogs and Eric Johnson might be able to tell the difference, but as a scientist, I'd gladly design that experiment and bet big money they can't.

Again - you are entitled to your opinion - but a lot of people presenting a lot of factual information.

I'm sticking with they are different, but so similar that it may or may not make an audible difference, but the magnet used with explain the majority of it, and if you use an A5 it would be identified as a JB and if you used a Double Thick Ceramic it would be identified as a Distortion, extremely minor differences aside.

[Clint 55]

Seriously cut the bull ****. The JB and Distortion with alnico in it are 2 of my favorite bridge pickups. I've not only tested both pickups with the same magnet, I've spent hours and hours with them. I know for a fact they're separate pickups. If you actually stfu, get off the forum, clean the wax out of ur ear, turn off the distortion box, and compare the 2 pickups with the same mag, you'd see how obvious it is. Stfu with the you heard a rumor so it must be true.

[Clint 55]

Yes, 100%, because the DD uses ceramic magnets, which are brighter and more scooped than A5

Comparing both pickups with A5.

[Gabrielinconfident]

They cut a ceramic bar and an A2 bar in half width-wise then assembled them end to end?

Yes. MJ made the pickup for me. See the attachments for the recently taken high res pictures (I'm actually selling this).

so unless someone is talking to them and they are willing to confirm or deny

As I mentioned, I did speak directly to them when I ordered the hybrid custom, both by email and on the phone, and they did confirm it back then. Also, note that the stated DC res on my pup is 16.2kΩ, which is again consistent with the material tolerance.