Checked : SH2N as credible substitutes to Gibson Patent Sticker T-Top’s.

[freefrog]

Well, granted, I’ve slightly modified a SH2 for that. I’ve changed…

-the 4-conductors cable for a braided shielded coaxial one. Got rid of some quirks in the extreme high range, due to capacitive coupling. Who uses a Jazz split or in parallel, anyway?

-the shiny stock A5 bar for a vintage RC one, a bit less gaussed…

-the covered form factor for an uncovered version, “dewaxed” (not a fan of candle wax going out of any hole as soon as a screw pole is turned with a screw driver)…

As the “donor” was some OEM SH2 (black cover, baseplate and slugs, bought half the price of a new one for these precise reasons), I’ve also swapped its BP for a regular NS one and its slugs for vintage correct parts.

Once that done, I had a black neck HB with DCR / inductance of 7.28k / 3.77H, and whose Q factor was exactly the same than with a neck Gibson Patent Sticker T-Top measuring 7.33k / 3.88H...

This modified SH2 has been paired with another Gibson Patent Sticker T-Top from 1968 (7.6k, 4.14H) and it’s a match made in heaven IME/IMHO. YMMV.


If the goal had been to find a substitute for a Pat. Stick. In bridge position, I’d have used another neck SH2 but in its Custom Shop version: they seem to have an higher inductance… My archives ranked them at 4.2H and the last "MJ" SH2N that I’ve measured, a few days ago, was at 4.24H.


FWIW and for those who want something cheaper than a Throbak, BrandonWound or Manlius T-Top replica...

 

[ToneFiddler]

Thank you very much, but too late for me at least.

Got the Manlius years ago, but they are reasonable priced.

Did you use a short or long magnet?
​

 

[freefrog]

Short vintage A5 bar...

 

[Chistopher]

Does the degaussing matter on an A5? DiMarzio says they use A5 across most their range because they are stable enough to only lose 1% charge every 100 years

 

[Artie]

It's interesting that changing the cable would affect the sound. Not doubting you, just surprised.

 

[freefrog]

Does the degaussing matter on an A5? DiMarzio says they use A5 across most their range because they are stable enough to only lose 1% charge every 100 years

I think you're right: unless exposed to a strong magnetic field and/or under the necessary critical mass, an A5 is not meant to degauss. My vintage Duncan A5's from the late 70's / early 80's are as strong as they were before : it's precisely on their ratio between Gaussing and inductivity that I rely to know they're A5.

Now, the question is to know if magnets of yesteryears materialized as efficiently as contemporary ones the recipes of Alni(Co) alloys and how they were charged initially... I've handled recent Gibson A5 bars so strongly gaussed that a pickup loaded with them would spit 1/3 more output than with a Duncan magnet. I've also met A5 (mostly vintage) that I couldn't really differentiate from other alloys, magnetically. Only their inductivity relatively to their mass would tell.

Instead of "degaussed", so, I should have wrote that my vintage mag was "less gaussed" than other A5 bars because it's the case.

And in my understanding, the use of "degaussed" magnets by Seymour is not supposed to mimic what times does, or not only: for me, it's mainly a way to imitate the effects of a less efficient industrial process, giving way less consistent magnets in the past than nowadays, when it comes to composition AND magnetization. YMMV.

 

[freefrog]

It's interesting that changing the cable would affect the sound. Not doubting you, just surprised.

in this case, TBH, it's mainly an effect of my OCD because the side effects of a 4-conductors cable are largely beyond guitar audio range with a SH2...

Below is a pic of what I mean. Red and green = electrically induced resonant peak for each coil of a vintage T-Top. Flat response beyond resonance in the audio range. Black and pink = each coil of a stock SH2, with these oddities due to parasitic capacitance in the extreme high range, above the main resonance of the pickups (both loaded by the same typical pots and guitar cables).




And here is a link toward a topic that I've devoted to various side effects of stray capacitance, FWIW.

https://music-electronics-forum.com...nce-of-passive-mag-transducers-a-few-thoughts
​

 

[Artie]

How do you generate those cool charts?

 

[beaubrummels]

FWIW IME a 59n in the bridge came nearly as close as the Electric City T-Top replica I have, and actually sounded a bit better/tighter. But it did sound the closest to all the classic rock recordings made with T-Tops in the 70s that I know of, after 4-5 years of tone quest. Ever since I've considered it a 'poor man's' T-Top (but only in the bridge; doesn't sound right or consistently the same in the neck)

 

[freefrog]

How do you generate those cool charts?

With the same kind of gear and strategy explained in "Measuring Frequency Response", there: http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

 

[freefrog]

FWIW IME a 59n in the bridge came nearly as close as the Electric City T-Top replica I have, and actually sounded a bit better/tighter. But it did sound the closest to all the classic rock recordings made with T-Tops in the 70s that I know of, after 4-5 years of tone quest. Ever since I've considered it a 'poor man's' T-Top (but only in the bridge; doesn't sound right or consistently the same in the neck)

IMHO, yes, it's possible to get really close with pickups having similar DCR/inductance values... A SH1N measuring 7.5k and 4.27H is logically on par with a T-Top of 7.5k and 4.22H, like those that I've played for a while in a Norlin LP Custom.

That said and not less logically, coils wound with poly insulated wire get closer IME than those built with PE wire. Such details affect things like harmonics and Q factor and the difference is subtle but clear once the related pickups played side by side.

Below is the electrically induced response of those evoked in the tittle and first post of this topic. One resonant peak is higher pitched than the other, as expected with an inductive gap of 0.37H between bridge and neck PU. It's difficult to find other noticeable differences after the mods that I've done.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I never new T-Tops were desirable. Were those the Norlin era substitutes for the PAF? Then again, the Norlin era stuff has caught up in the last 15 years or so.

 

[freefrog]

I never new T-Tops were desirable. Were those the Norlin era substitutes for the PAF? Then again, the Norlin era stuff has caught up in the last 15 years or so.

Desirable is subjective but it should be possible to ask their opinion to obscure folks who have played T-Top's, like Jimmy Page, Randy Rhoads, Angus Young, the Schenker brothers and a few others... <:0)

That "dad joke" being done and more seriously: IME, Patent Sticker T-Top's have most of the distinctive qualities of previous Patent Sticker's wound with PE, themselves with most of the qualities of P.A.F.'s (the real ones and not their idealized image, largely based on earsaying and commonplaces). Hence what Beaubrummel said about a P.A.F. clone like the SH1N as a possible substitute to T-Tops : all these humbuckers are obviously of the same family.

More recent stamped T-Tops from the Norlin era are less appreciated for various reasons: they were often associated to dulling 300k pots, mounted under covers less magnetically transparent than previously , and occasionally fitted with weak magnets. Once these depreciative factors corrected, they nevertheless appear largely similar to previous versions.

15 years ago, one of my friend, younger than me, was fond of T-Top's for super heavy rock: he liked the edgy precision of these puppies through his Recto...


Anecdotically, the Norlin LP that I've mentioned in a previous post is a guitar that I used way before that, 40 years ago. I don't remember anyone disliking this instrument nor what I played on it: it was a "fretless wonder" model, giving me much pleasure and inspiration, with an instantly familiar tone...

To come back on topic, playing a neck Patent Sticker T-Top on a SG from the late 60's/early 70's is an experience that I wish to other guitar players. I've found something of it the first time I've played a SH2N in a slab body guitar... Hence the idea to check how close the Duncan Jazz was or not to early T-Top's. My conclusions about that have been explained above.

FWIW.

 

[Aceman]

I never new T-Tops were desirable. Were those the Norlin era substitutes for the PAF? Then again, the Norlin era stuff has caught up in the last 15 years or so.

No they are not.
Yes they were.
It is just old, not "Vintage"

 

[freefrog]

Eh eh... Being 5 years older than the oldest Patent Sticker T-Top in my possession, can I at least consider myself as "vintage"?...

I'll ask to Chat-GPT.

An interesting paradox is how old things make us feel younger by perpetuating our past, anyway...


To come back on topic, I appreciate the article below, wrote by a UK boutique winder. FWIW.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/169600/all-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-gibson-t-tops

 

[orpheo]

IMHO, yes, it's possible to get really close with pickups having similar DCR/inductance values... A SH1N measuring 7.5k and 4.27H is logically on par with a T-Top of 7.5k and 4.22H, like those that I've played for a while in a Norlin LP Custom.

That said and not less logically, coils wound with poly insulated wire get closer IME than those built with PE wire. Such details affect things like harmonics and Q factor and the difference is subtle but clear once the related pickups played side by side.

Below is the electrically induced response of those evoked in the tittle and first post of this topic. One resonant peak is higher pitched than the other, as expected with an inductive gap of 0.37H between bridge and neck PU. It's difficult to find other noticeable differences after the mods that I've done.

Those two curves are almost identical. The SD has a slightly higher resonance peak but you'd have to be God himself to hear that difference I think.

 

[beaubrummels]

I never new T-Tops were desirable. Were those the Norlin era substitutes for the PAF? Then again, the Norlin era stuff has caught up in the last 15 years or so.

The big thing that changed between then and now is that now most every amp on the market has sufficient gain available that T-Tops now can be useful. Back then, they didn't drive an amp or get the response necessary to sound as good as they could.

 

[Chistopher]

T-Tops are a great example of the internet guitar forum hivemind at work. I've never played one, but there is a whole team of experts online to develop an opinion for me. If you ask me the hype behind them is just that. Same as my opinion on PAFs. Soon someone is going to find out you can make a good sound on tar backs (which you can) and those prices are going to go through the roof too

 

[marcello252]

Desirable is subjective but it should be possible to ask their opinion to obscure folks who have played T-Top's, like Jimmy Page, Randy Rhoads, Angus Young, the Schenker brothers and a few others... <:0)

is the 67 triple pickup Jimi Hendrix' SG possibly driven by T-Tops ?

 

[freefrog]

T-Tops are a great example of the internet guitar forum hivemind at work. I've never played one, but there is a whole team of experts online to develop an opinion for me. If you ask me the hype behind them is just that. Same as my opinion on PAFs. Soon someone is going to find out you can make a good sound on tar backs (which you can) and those prices are going to go through the roof too

Hype?... No, mate, this thread is not an advertising session for T-Top's. People are free to like or dislike these PU's (practically or theoretically) and I couldn't care less, to be honest. My only goal was to share a testimonial giving to people a possible way to reproduce the T-Top tone, with a cheaper pickup gone through a few simple mods.

And yes, Tar-Back's can certainly sound good, BTW. To me at least. YMMV. ;-)