Push/pull volume knobs to bypass Tone?

[GuitarDoc]

Yeah, the LP can be a bit weird with both pups on because of the 2 vol, 2 tone design. It's hard to nail that tone you want. That TBS-type tone control may actually be a good thing.

Try it out and let us know how you like it.

[sumitagarwal]

It won't act as a "master tone" because (at least how Freefrog has shown it wired) it really only affects one pup at a time, (except for the capacitance on both pups in the center position) turning clockwise from center detent affects tone on "one" pup but doesn't affect the "other", turning it counterclockwise affects the "other" pup but not the "one" pup.

Ah, got it.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it's a little less conventional. It's where the interesting dual-pickup sounds happen on a Les Paul...

[GuitarDoc]

I don't fully understand the signal path but I think with both pickups on that would act like a master tone?

It won't act as a "master tone" because (at least how Freefrog has shown it wired) it really only affects one pup at a time, (except for the capacitance on both pups in the center position) turning clockwise from center detent affects tone on "one" pup but doesn't affect the "other", turning it counterclockwise affects the "other" pup but not the "one" pup.

[freefrog]

Hey, this is awesome! So basically when at the center position both pickups will have their tone at "10", and then rotating in either direction will individually roll them down so one can have a pre-set tone setting while the other is at full, for quick switching?

Yes.

And when the pickup switch is at the middle position does this continue to work as a individual pickup tone adjustment (other pickup at full), or does it work as a master tone?

In a guitar with 2 tone pots, lowering both controls gives a twice higher capacitive load (twice 22 nF = 44nF). Obviously, this doubling effect can't happen with the TBX as I've wired it in the pic above. BUT it's still a "master tone" in mid position since putting the control @ 0 on one of the two sides still affects both pickups in this case...

At least theoretically seems useful and intuitive, surprised I haven't seen it yet elsewhere.

One can do many things with a TBX but as a matter of fact, the potentialities of this control are most often ignored by the Internet...

[sumitagarwal]

It's doable with a TBX control whose pots would remain separate. I'll share a schematic later if time permits.

EDIT - Below is the idea. Red wire goes to the hot wire of one pickup. Green wire goes to the hot wire of the other pickup (choose if you want to connect it according to the "modern wiring" or "50s wiring" principle by selecting the proper lug on the volume pot of each pickup).
No electrical connection must be created between the two pots. But the whole metal housing must be connected to ground... Adjust cap values to taste and choose which pot value you want for each pickup: pot B is a 250k no-load, pot A is a 1M. These value can be modified if needed thx to the old recipe of resistors parallel to track(s):

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm

FWIW. HTH.

Hey, this is awesome! So basically when at the center position both pickups will have their tone at "10", and then rotating in either direction will individually roll them down so one can have a pre-set tone setting while the other is at full, for quick switching? And when the pickup switch is at the middle position does this continue to work as a individual pickup tone adjustment (other pickup at full), or does it work as a master tone?

At least theoretically seems useful and intuitive, surprised I haven't seen it yet elsewhere.

[Artie]

I think the S-1 isn't more common because it is expensive, and uses a proprietary Strat knob . . .

Just an FYI: They do make a Tele version that takes a set-screw knob. I like these better.

https://guitarelectronics.com/fender-500k-s-1-switching-volume-tone-control-solid-shaft/

[freefrog]

Hey, I had another idea on this: what about a tone blend pot with a center detent? My thinking is that at center both pickups would have tone at full, and rotating either way would roll the tone down on only one pickup.

I don't fully understand the signal path but I think with both pickups on that would act like a master tone?

It's doable with a TBX control whose pots would remain separate. I'll share a schematic later if time permits.

EDIT - Below is the idea. Red wire goes to the hot wire of one pickup. Green wire goes to the hot wire of the other pickup (choose if you want to connect it according to the "modern wiring" or "50s wiring" principle by selecting the proper lug on the volume pot of each pickup).
No electrical connection must be created between the two pots. But the whole metal housing must be connected to ground... Adjust cap values to taste and choose which pot value you want for each pickup: pot B is a 250k no-load, pot A is a 1M. These value can be modified if needed thx to the old recipe of resistors parallel to track(s):

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm

FWIW. HTH.

[sumitagarwal]

Hey, I had another idea on this: what about a tone blend pot with a center detent? My thinking is that at center both pickups would have tone at full, and rotating either way would roll the tone down on only one pickup.

I don't fully understand the signal path but I think with both pickups on that would act like a master tone?

[sumitagarwal]

wow this is great!
i actually settled on the X-Series for the explorer because of the lack of space for the dual 9V-Blocks, but this is a great idea i never though of!

What about 1 Volume, dual Tone? Make things way more easy!

Thanks! I couldn't find any examples of other people doing this even though it seemed relatively obvious, so I figured there must be some reason it doesn't work, but it does.

1 vol 2 tone seems good too, but I actually need independent volume more than independent tone for how I play.

[ToneFiddler]

You guys will probably find this really silly, but I was trying to figure out how to make more space in my EMG Explorer for more advanced wiring, specifically the options we're talking about in this thread.

So I thought: why not use little CR2032 button batteries instead of 9V? Started stacking 3 of them, and realized I could stack 6 with just an additional centimeter of space. As you can see, it's a janky brown-neck hack, but it works!!

18V mod in a much smaller space than 9V. Definitely sounds better! More dynamics and headroom (basically, less limiting).

Most surprising part: on my Fractal FM3 I'm able to clip the input even when I have the 18 dB input pad on!

wow this is great!
i actually settled on the X-Series for the explorer because of the lack of space for the dual 9V-Blocks, but this is a great idea i never though of!

What about 1 Volume, dual Tone? Make things way more easy!

[sumitagarwal]

You guys will probably find this really silly, but I was trying to figure out how to make more space in my EMG Explorer for more advanced wiring, specifically the options we're talking about in this thread.

So I thought: why not use little CR2032 button batteries instead of 9V? Started stacking 3 of them, and realized I could stack 6 with just an additional centimeter of space. As you can see, it's a janky brown-neck hack, but it works!!

18V mod in a much smaller space than 9V. Definitely sounds better! More dynamics and headroom (basically, less limiting).

Most surprising part: on my Fractal FM3 I'm able to clip the input even when I have the 18 dB input pad on!

[ehdwuld]

Thanks

[GuitarDoc]

Thanks freefrog for that explanation. I've installed several TBX controls and that is exactly what I hear. I theorized just what you have described...now I know perfectly what is actually goin on, confirming what I thought.

[freefrog]

I dont under stand how a dual concentric pot is the equivalent of a no load pot
that sound not right

But its yours
Have fun

My attempt to share of yesterday at night was effectively not clear at all... :-P

Buttt... the 250k part of a stock TBX (not mounted, without components) is a no load control in center position. That's how Fender designed it.

The 1M part is half conductive, half resistive. Its resistance is of 0 Ohm from 0 to 5/10 (center position) then rises from 0 Ohm to 1M between 5.1/10 and 10/10.


This control as I've installed it in an Explorer works as following:

*From 4.5 to zero, it's a normal 250k tone control, since I've fitted the 250k part with a regular 22nF (0.022µF) tone cap.

*At 5/10, the resistive load of 250k is disabled.

*The center lugs of both controls are connected to each other and to the "hot" side of the output jack.

*On the 1M part, the right lug is connected to nothing. The left lug is connected to a 1nF cap (0.001µF) going to ground. So this part works as a 1M tone control with a low value capacitor, trimming the high range but leaving the hi-mid intact.
That's where I've not been clear at all: the control is never in no-load mode in the strict meaning of this word, since it involves a capacitive load in center position... Now, a low value cap has a paradoxical action: it shifts down the frequency of the resonant peak but makes it narrower and peakier. So the sound becomes focused in the hi-mid, more nasal (albeit still natural if the capacitor has a low value... Beyond 3.3nF it would start to sound more "artificial" / cocked wah).
Once the 250k part engaged, the related resistive load is added to the circuit and makes the resonant peak rounder. The sound is still mid-centric but mellower and will progressively get flatter then darker from 4.5/10 to 0/10 since it works like a normal tone control...

To sum it up:
Pot full up = 1M load between pickup and a 1nF cap to ground. The sound is almost as bright as with a pot in no-load mode.
Pot @5: no resistive load, low capacitive load. Mid-focused resonance, nasal tone.
Pot from 4.5 to 0/10: 250k tone control engaged (while the 1nF cap is still active). This 250k resistive load added to the capacitive load = mellower sound, going darker if the pot is lowered more than this.

I've wasted our time to explain that for one single reason: the user is happy with the result. Hence my attempt to share here (apparently bugged by our old friend covid who is again "loading" my body. "LOL").

I'll post a schematic later, with graphs showing what happens exactly.

[ehdwuld]

eclecticsynergy : brilliant and elegant solution IMHO. Thx for sharing! I had a vague intuition it could be done. Was too buzy and tired to think about it. The pic of a light bulb came to my mind when I've read your post. :-)

Regarding the idea evoked by ehdwuld: I've recently mounted a Fender TBX pot on an Explorer. @ 10/10, the load is of 1M. I've used the center position, theoretically "no load" as a way to promote the high mids (thx to a low value cap, 1nF in this case. Maybe I'll mount a 2,2nF or higher later). From 4,5 to 0/10, the 250k tone control is enabled and works like a normal one, with a 22nF cap. Fulfils the needs of the user, with three shades: clean n' bright full up, greasy middy but still tight @ 5/10, mellower and darker under 5.

FWIW.

I dont under stand how a dual concentric pot is the equivalent of a no load pot
that sound not right

But its yours
Have fun