Help needed: how to connect two lipstick pickups in series with 1 volume and 1 tone?

[slidincharlie]

Hi.
I own a beautiful 1967 Danelectro-made Silvertone 1457 guitar.
The stock configuration includes two lipstick pickups and a pair of staggered pots with concentric knobs (vol+tone) for each pickup (Fig1 attached, source: premierguitar.com).
The pickups are wired in series, so that the pickup-selector toggle switch (a SPDT center-off switch) offers the following combinations:
• Bridge pickup alone
• Bridge + neck pickup in series
• Neck pickup alone
Now I happen to hate concentric knobs and I wish to switch to a simpler 1 volume 1 tone configuration while retaining the series connection.
How do I obtain this?
I have seen a couple wiring options in other forums (Fig2 and Fig3 attached, sources: madbeanpedals.com, talkbass.com), but they look different from each other to my non-expert eyes, so I suspect that at least one of them is totally wrong.
Can anybody please advise and tell me how do I get what I need?
Many thanks in advance.
--Carlo

[ArtieToo]

Fig 3 is correct. Use Blue for the "+" wires, red for the "-" wires, and ground the bare wires to output jack sleeve or the back of the pots. Just any good ground.

Then post pics. I've got the dual-Lipstick-Humbucker version. They're always cool to see.

[slidincharlie]

Fig 3 is correct. Use Blue for the "+" wires, red for the "-" wires [...].

Thank you very much Artie.
I'm not sure what you mean with blue and rew wires in your post though.
Fig3 shows only red "+" wires and black "-" wires, plus a red/black "-" wire from the neck pup.
Maybe you are referring to Fig2? If so, I do not understand why and how the blue and red wire mix together before going to the switch's center lug.

[ArtieToo]

Can you verify that your pickups have a blue, red, and bare wire?

Also: I just noticed. The switch in your guitar isn't likely to be on-off-on. It will probably be B/both/N. That changes things. I think I have a diagram for that. Gimme a sec to look.

A pic of the switch and the pups would be helpful, but not absolutely necessary. Do you have a meter.

The switch in fig. 1 is not the same as the switch on fig. 3.

[slidincharlie]

Thanks for bearing with me Artie.
1) My pickups have two black wires and a bare one each. Actuall there is no way to tell which is + and which is - I guess.
2) The switch actually works as B/both/N as you said, but all posts and articles I've read about vintage Dano guitars with two pups connected in series (like my guitar) describe it as an on/off/on switch. Dunno if it's a correct description.
3) Fig1 shows exactly and correctly the current stock configuration in my guitar.

[ArtieToo]

No prob . . . but the problem is that fig. 1 shows blue and red wires. Assuming your guitar is still wired up, trace the wires that go to the center lug of the tone controls. In other words, the wires that would be the blue wires in fig. 1. Put a piece of tape on them to identify them later.

Let me know when you've done that. Still looking for the diagram.

(And getting a meter would be helpful. That would help with identifying polarity and switch function.)

I accidently said "volume" controls. I meant "tone" controls.

Edit: The more I look at fig. 1, the more it appears that it may actually be an on-off-on.

[slidincharlie]

I have already disconnected the original harness but I took pictures before unsoldering, so I guess I can trace all wires to their original position, luckily.
Re: switch, I can tell you that in the center position both pups were connected and sounded louder and beefier than either single pup. I want to retain this series configuraion when I re-wire to 1 vol and 1 tone.
Later.

[ArtieToo]

Ok . . . without a meter, what we can do is just wire it up. Just use fig. 3. When you solder the wires for the neck pup, just tin the end and "touch" solder them to the two terminals of the switch. By that, I mean, don't wrap the wire around a bunch. Just tin the end of the wires and the terminal on the switch. Make a "light" connection, so that it's easy to unsolder.

If it all works, you're good to go. If the middle position sounds weak and tinny, then just reverse the two neck position wires, and you should be good.

We need to do that extra "odd" step because you don't have a meter, and both wires are black. Bare wires still go to a ground somewhere.

[slidincharlie]

Artie I'm sorry I didn't reply, but I do have a DMM! So what should I check with it?
(In the meantime I am tracing the black wires where they used to belong...)

EDIT: wires traced, now I know which wires were blue and which were red like in the stock confguration (Fig1).

[ArtieToo]

No prob. I'm in and out myself. That's good that you identified the wires, but I'd do the polarity test anyway. For one, just to know how to do it. And two, sometimes manufacturers throw you a curve ball. Dano might be one.

Put your meter on it's lowest DC Volts setting, unless it's auto-ranging. Then let it do the work. Place the red lead on what you believe is the pup wire that went to the pots, and the black meter lead to the other wire. Place a screwdriver up against the top of the pickup. Now, yank it away. You should see a small voltage as you approach the pickup, and slightly larger one, opposite polarity, as you yank it away. Note if approaching or yanking away was "+" or "-". Now do the same for the other pickup, and note those readings. Make sure you assign both positives, or negatives, to the same color. Red or blue. Absolute polarity doesn't matter. Just that they're both the same.

Seymour Duncan pups would do a negative voltage as you yank the screwdriver away. I always use that so I can use Duncan diagrams.

Whichever way you label them, use one polarity for the "blue" wires in fig. 3 and the other polarity for the "red" wires. Bare wires always go to ground.

Does that make sense, or did I confuse things more?

Another, possibly easier way to do it is: whichever way you traced the wires to the pots, call "blue." The "other" two wires become the "reds" in fig. 3. Again, bares are always ground.

[slidincharlie]

Ok, I didi the test. Approaching gave a tiny +VDC reading, yanking away gave a very slightly higher -VDC reading. This was consistent with probe position and previous tracing.
Tomorrow I'll do the job following Fig3 and post here the results.

[ArtieToo]

Cool. That means they have Duncan polarity characteristics. Let us know how she goes.

[slidincharlie]

Job done.
Bad news :-( .
I followed closely Fig3. Note that Fig3 shows a red/black wire (that I have interpreted as "-" wire plus ground/bare wire tied together) from neck pup to ground. This combination of "-" tied to bare wire to ground in the stock configuration (Fig1) was on the bridge pup, not neck.
Anyway... after following Fig3 the series connection works as expected (louder volume with the switch in the central position), and the guitar is very quiet (no hum or buzz, even though the strings aren't grounded, as in the stock configuration).
Problems are:
- when I put the volume on 0 I still have sound from the amp, although low;
- the tone pot doesn't work.
Can you figure out what went wrong?

[ArtieToo]

Ok, that's actually good, in a way. The remaining problem is now fairly simple.

The volume and tone problem is probably a ground problem. Double check those. But, if the volume goes down, but not all the way to "zer", that usually indicates a dirty, or worn out, pot. A shot of Deoxit, or contact cleaner, may do the trick. If not, then you may need to replace the pot. Are they new?

The tone control problem could either be, bad ground, again, or the wrong cap value. Make sure it's 0.0xx uf, and not 0.xx uf or somesuch.

I'll post a redrawn pic to see if that helps.

[slidincharlie]

I had forgotten to ground the external lug of the volume pot: now this is fixed and the volume works fine.
There is continuity between all the points that are expected to be grounded.
Unfortunately the tone is still not working. I am using a 0.047 uF cap (the stock ones were 0.1 - yes, that big). I had tested the pot with the DMM and it seemd okay.
I have exactly reproduced your drawng except for one point: the left lug of the switch is connected to the tone pot case but it is not further connected to any other ground point - in other words that short black ground wire from the left lug in the drawing does not exist in the guitar. Do I need it? Where should I ground it?